Progressive Maple Challenge - Amur maple #1 WP

[A Random User]

There are some trees that I will never get rid of because of what you're saying. They'll never be artisan cup level material, but they bring me joy, so I continue to work them. However, these trees will ideally be about 30% of my collection.

I understand and agree...

My issue is the following...
I am not trying to pull of mediocre trees for my self enjoyment, quite the contrary. I am not presenting sticks in pots as some form of serious art.

I am a serious Artist, I want my Art to be that of World Class material... I don't have access ability to material that is top notch and I don't have a wad of cash...

I am more than fully aware of the game I am playing, and understand quite well the reality of the scenario. I understand that life is not fair as Walter has said...

However, I have determination and the drive to compete on this stage... and will not allow the fairness of life to stand in my way. I learned this along time ago, in my early days of Bonsai. That if this was what I wanted, I was just going to have to find another way to make it happen... that if I am to have this goal, and if I am going to compete on this level, I am going to have to work with what I do have and figure out a way to put this quality into my trees. In essence, I am going to have to make the world class tree.

I am an Artist, this is an Art... what I lack in the way of material, I am able to make up in my Artist ability. I believe there is a way to do this, I have to... I am not going to ever just accept that because life is not fair, I cannot achieve something if I want to bad enough. It just means I have to work harder because of the disadvantage and be that much more creative. Creativity is not an area I am lacking in.

Want to add the following, I am very appreciative of Walter taking the time to post his thoughts and views here, and I very much appreciate his Art. I am not trying to disagree with you Walter just because. I understand and agree with your thoughts and views, I just have no other choice than to disagree with you on the fundamental level that only a select few can play the game... I want to play the game, but am not the select few, so I just have to find another way to do so, and not then play by the select few rules.

 

[Andrew Robson]

I don't have access ability to material that is top notch and I don't have a wad of cash...

Then I see two options to play in the game. You either go find and collect material yourself, or grow it yourself like Gremel.

 

[A Random User]

Then I see two options to play in the game. You either go find and collect material yourself, or grow it yourself like Gremel.

I have been creating and doing what I need to play in the game. I post up my work all the time... Even suggest others do the same...

Sorry, Walter for hijacking your thread, was not my intention, again thank you for posting!

 

[Eric Group]

Sorry Walter... but you are going to have to hammer it home a bit more...

See, the reason why I ask, is that I actually have quite a bit of impressive material, that is in stages of being worked and refined.
Yet to be honest with you, I think that even though this material might be impressive, I actually think that a lot of the work I have been creating from
mediocre or bad material has much more meaning and is visually more interesting to look at, not to mention they are taking on a life and are telling a story. Which my other trees are not... just looking good. How can this be?

Am I to throw out my good material in favor of my Bad? Of course not... I am not trying to give you a hard time. My point was with the other thread you mentioned in passing, was that, what is it that determines great material?

You have suggested that this Maple that you have posted here is prime example of good material. I happen to like it as well, because for me it has character and in all actuality has a lot of what some would call flaws... to me this is what in all actuality is probably giving the character to the tree, Right? Which is why you as well as myself probably appreciate it... we understand and look for the character in a piece of material because it shows "life".

For others the flaws in this tree are sticking points, and they would probably pass and say this is not at all, good material. Why would they do this... because for some perhaps they are not looking for the life within the tree, but are instead perhaps looking for a pristine image of a perfect tree. For some their is godliness in the form of true perfection, and the obtainment of this true perfection... to these folks this perfection is the true Art. So, just with these two instances their are conflicting thoughts of what makes good material.

Is one suppose to go out and obtain the best material to make the pristine tree, or as in the case of your tree... look for one with what those looking for the pristine tree would say are flaws? Then one needs to ask, how many flaws are acceptable? And where does one draw the line between what is now acceptable and what is not? Seems that this answer would be one of personal choice and personal preference, right?

If this is to be the case, than there is a whole area open for interpretation of what makes a good piece of material... you and I might like something others might hate. If Bonsai is an Art, and I am creating a piece of art... what then works for me is not necessarily the quality of a piece of material others might enjoy, but instead the quality of a piece of material that I enjoy, and that I as an Artist feel, can best portray the story that I am wishing to tell.

So.. Being someone who is prone to long winded replies, I Do understand the need to "go long" sometimes... I think what you are saying here though could be summed up quickly with: "good material" is subjective.

"One man's trash is another man's treasure"... A tree that I might not see a good plan for could languish in my bench as trash for years, where you might grab it, set it on it's side and turn into something beautiful in one make over... So, vision and skill does come into play certainly...
But I think what Walter and others are getting at here is- you cannot buy a $5 pro nana at Home Depot and turn it into some flowing massive masterpiece that Ryan Neil is churning out from collected material. I own one Amur Maple- a cutting I got in a swap this year (well, two now as I rooted my own cutting off it..) but it will not in my lifetime look like Walter's tree no matter how artistically talented I am. This medium REQUIRES good material to make trees of a certain caliber. Painting, sculpture, photography and film even... You make the "material" yourself on a blank canvas or out of a lump of clay or by picking the right portion or angle to photograph a subject from... In Bonsai artistic skill can make a cutting or a little nursery tree look cool, but you cannot make world class trees without a certain level of material to start with (or 50-100 years of time to wait..). That is- to me- part of what is both so cool and so challenging about Bonsai.

 

[M. Frary]

these trees will ideally be about 30% of my collection

So 7 out of 10 trees are going to be artisan cup contenders?

 

[Andrew Robson]

So 7 out of 10 trees are going to be artisan cup contenders?

My dad and I want about 7 out of 10 to be trees that could win awards in shows, and be accepted into shows like the Artisans Cup and US National Show. That's why from now on we're only buying one quality tree a year.

 

[M. Frary]

My dad and I want about 7 out of 10 to be trees that could win awards in shows, and be accepted into shows like the Artisans Cup and US National Show. That's why from now on we're only buying one quality tree a year.

You guys already have good quality trees.

 

[Andrew Robson]

You guys already have good quality trees.

Thanks! We're trying to up our game to the next level!

When I have a yard of my own, I plan to grow trees for myself and the next generation. My goal is to have about 50 trees in pots, and about 30 pre bonsai growing in boxes or plastic containers.

 

[M. Frary]

Thanks! We're trying to up our game to the next level!

When I have a yard of my own, I plan to grow trees for myself and the next generation. My goal is to have about 50 trees in pots, and about 30 pre bonsai growing in boxes or plastic containers.

Good luck Andrew. I'm sure you and your dad will do great.
I must say,it's nice to see some of you younger people so accomplished in bonsai. Seth Nelson is another.

 

[music~maker]

See, the reason why I ask, is that I actually have quite a bit of impressive material, that is in stages of being worked and refined.
Yet to be honest with you, I think that even though this material might be impressive, I actually think that a lot of the work I have been creating from
mediocre or bad material has much more meaning and is visually more interesting to look at, not to mention they are taking on a life and are telling a story. Which my other trees are not... just looking good. How can this be?

The trees I have that are most interesting to me are ones where I am actively intervening a little bit each year as I develop the trunk. They would not be impressive to anyone according to any reasonable standard of quality, but I see in my mind's eye what they will look like in 5-10 years or more, so they are epic trees to me even through others would see only immature, boring trees.

As fun as it is to start with stellar material (and I do seek out better and better material all the time), I do enjoy growing things out that most people would pass over.

I figure the best yamadori probably have a fairly restricted root system, and have to deal with lots of adversity along the way, so I try to simulate bits of that adversity over time. It's very satisfying to see the incremental improves to the trunk year after year.

That's one of the things I liked about your tree from the "world class trees" thread. You have introduced a hell of a lot of adversity, and now you have an awesome frame to grow onto over future years. You've set it on a completely new path, and it's now up to the tree to show you what it can do. That's so much more interesting than just maintaining a polished style. And no matter what, there's no other tree that looks quite like that one.

 

[Walter Pall]

I am a serious Artist, I want my Art to be that of World Class material... I don't have access ability to material that is top notch and I don't have a wad of cash...

I am more than fully aware of the game I am playing, and understand quite well the reality of the scenario. I understand that life is not fair as Walter has said...

However, I have determination and the drive to compete on this stage... and will not allow the fairness of life to stand in my way. I learned this along time ago, in my early days of Bonsai. That if this was what I wanted, I was just going to have to find another way to make it happen... that if I am to have this goal, and if I am going to compete on this level, I am going to have to work with what I do have and figure out a way to put this quality into my trees. In essence, I am going to have to make the world class tree.

I am an Artist, this is an Art... what I lack in the way of material, I am able to make up in my Artist ability. I believe there is a way to do this, I have to... I am not going to ever just accept that because life is not fair, I cannot achieve something if I want to bad enough. It just means I have to work harder because of the disadvantage and be that much more creative. Creativity is not an area I am lacking in.

Want to add the following, I am very appreciative of Walter taking the time to post his thoughts and views here, and I very much appreciate his Art. I am not trying to disagree with you Walter just because. I understand and agree with your thoughts and views, I just have no other choice than to disagree with you on the fundamental level that only a select few can play the game... I want to play the game, but am not the select few, so I just have to find another way to do so, and not then play by the select few rules.

Sawgrass,

it all boils down to the definition of 'superior material'. I define it simple as the material that allows you to create a superior bonsai within a reasonable time frame. For most this would be the obviously 'good' material. This is what most folks would want. It is rare and very expensive, because there is lots of demand. Unfortunately the obvious material will allow you to create an obvious bonsai - often boring and even cookie-cutter. The other extreme is the 'impossible' material. With a lot of experience and creativity one can create great trees from it. It is often cheap because most think it's worthless. The result are often very interesting and u unique. These are two extremes and the majority is somewhere in between these extremes.

I think you are opting for the second kind of material out of need and artistic ambition. Nothing against this, you are in good company. Kimura did exactly this about 30 years ago - out of need and artistic ambition. I have done this since ever because I am frugal and because of artistic ambition.

So my quest for folks to go for the very best material possible needs some addition: you must understand the often what you think is the best material is only mediocre and very expensive anyway. The best material in many cases is not at all obvious.

In my International Bonsai Academy I teach the art of seeing the final bonsai in very complicated and even 'impossible' material.

 

[Walter Pall]

another Amur Maple, same source

 

[Walter Pall]

This was the original material three years ago.

 

[Walter Pall]

October 2017

 

[ralf]

Hedge cutting=fast wood=long internodes. From a reasonable distance looks great and doesn't take too much time to produce.
And yes, it looks very natural despite few wire bites.

 

[Walter Pall]

Hedge cutting=fast wood=long internodes. From a reasonable distance looks great and doesn't take too much time to produce.
And yes, it looks very natural despite few wire bites.

ralf,

have you ever worked with this species? Show me a good result.

 

[discusmike]

I think the tree is stunning,and i realize with this species your not getting super short internode length like you achieve with some, the wire bites will eventually fade when the branches bark roughens,ive passed this species up,but im having second thoughts after seeing some nice examples. This tree looks to be hundreds of years old even though its much much younger,Nice work!

 

[ralf]

Walter, sorry it was just my cry from nowhere. If I am the only one who can see a tree with a great looking trunk and with the branch structure in the early stages of its development then OK. This early stage may justify the fast, straight wood that is just filling empty space. I do not like it even on this stage but that is me. Sorry to intrude the discussion.

 

[jasonpg]

another Amur Maple, same source

Walter, do you defoliate Amur Maples to speed up ramification? I see that practice used on Trident Maples, and didn't know if the same practice applies here.

 

[Walter Pall]

Jason,

I don't because it is not necessary on the mature trees that I have. It would be possible just like on tridents. Amur maples have the tendency to loose thin branches here and there though after defoliation.