Proposed soil

[PABonsai]

Hi everyone. This is my first posting here, and having read many of the threads I'm having second thoughts. But here goes.

I am working on my very first soil mixtures and have obtained poultry grit (100% granite), perlite and pine bark "mulch".

I have sifted the perlite to >#5 sieve and then #5-#10 figuring I can use the bigger stuff in larger pots if I ever get there. And I have sifted the pine so that I'm only keeping #4-#10 screen (took out the dust and large particles). I haven't opened the grit yet but I'm assuming all I can do there is sift the dust out.

My question is, without having ratios picked out, do these 3 ingredients make sense? My thoughts are that perlite and grit will add drainage while the grit also adds weight. And then the pine bark will all some moisture retention at maybe 5-10%. I know the huge arguments these devolve into but these ingredients are what are local and affordable. yes, I would eventually love lava, pumice and akadama, but that's well beyond my budget until I learn to keep trees alive. I'm in southern PA.

 

[Palmer67]

Welcome! I'm no expert and still pretty new at this, but we need to know where you live. Update your location in your profile. There are tons of articles and some good You Tube videos on soil.

For example, I'm in Seattle and it's wet. I'm learning organic (mulch and potting mix) are pretty evil. My trees are drowning so I'm moving to inorganic material only. Basically all rocks. But if I lived in Florida or somewhere hot, I would probably incorporate some organic soil. Where are you?

 

[PABonsai]

Welcome! I'm no expert and still pretty new at this, but we need to know where you live. Update your location in your profile. There are tons of articles and some good You Tube videos on soil.

For example, I'm in Seattle and it's wet. I'm learning organic (mulch and potting mix) are pretty evil. My trees are drowning so I'm moving to inorganic material only. Basically all rocks. But if I lived in Florida or somewhere hot, I would probably incorporate some organic soil. Where are you?

Sorry, that was my very last sentence in the post, should have moved it higher I guess. I'm in southern PA.

 

[Palmer67]

Sorry, that was my very last sentence in the post, should have moved it higher I guess. I'm in southern PA.

I like your ingredients and I'm sure they'll work. With a new mix I like to plant one or two and then see what the plant demands of me. Ideally, with the 70-80 degree weather right now, I want to water daily before noon. If my plants are drowning, add more rocks. If they're drying up, add more dirt. Some soil combos are going to demand more or less water, so it's a watch and learn. That silly balancing thing.

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

The weight differential of the grit and perlite is going to cause easy floating and settling of particles.

Before long you'll have a later of perlite on top of a layer of bark atop a layer of grit.

Just use Napa 8822 and leave the mixing to DJ's.

Sorce

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

I used NAPA 8822, grit, and bark fines for everything up to this year. No problems so far except i now have to water that stuff differently than I water in my more traditional mix i started using this spring.

 

[PABonsai]

Welcome to Crazy!

The weight differential of the grit and perlite is going to cause easy floating and settling of particles.

Before long you'll have a later of perlite on top of a layer of bark atop a layer of grit.

Just use Napa 8822 and leave the mixing to DJ's.

Sorce

Thanks Sorce, so just replace the perlite with napa and move on my way?

 

[PABonsai]

I used NAPA 8822, grit, and bark fines for everything up to this year. No problems so far except i now have to water that stuff differently than I water in my more traditional mix i started using this spring.

Thanks, can I just walk in any napa and grab this stuff?

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

Thanks, can I just walk in any napa and grab this stuff?

Yep. Make sure its NAPA part 8822 - they use it to soak up oil. You will definitely want to sift the fines out of it (wear a dust mask!). When you're done, will very much resemble cat little in size and consistency.

 

[sorce]

Thanks Sorce, so just replace the perlite with napa and move on my way?

I'd skip everything else!

Sorce

 

[penumbra]

Sorce is completely accurate about the granite / perlite mix. It will definitely separate. I have used hundreds of pounds of granite for a multitude of horticultural purposes over the past 30 years. I still use a bit from time to time but be aware it has no water retention capabilities. Pumice does but is a problem as stated. Bark holds a bit but not as much as you would think. Turface holds quite a bit and pumice even more so. Lava also holds moisture. I still use all of these products today and I still use some granite, but most of this is for succulents. Unfortunately the Napa stores in my town do not sell DE 8822. I have heard great things about it and may eventually get some, but I am very happy with the mixes I am using more than 90% of the time.

 

[PABonsai]

Well, lava and pumice are both pretty much unobtainable where I am. At least, I have yet to find a place that have them and I've checked nurseries, garden stores, HI stores and anywhere I can think. That was why I was going this route. So you do you think I should do? Are you suggesting go to Napa-Granite only? Part of my problem is I've already got the perlite and 1 of 3 pine bark bags sifted. I didn't exactly want to waste all this, but if it's unusable.....

 

[GGB]

For some reason our state is a bonsai soil desert. NAPA 8822 is definitely an awesome option. And unfortunately perlite is about useless. I tried it my first season and totally wasted my time. Decomposed pine bark is super legit, but not very nessecary if you're using 822. I just shell out for lava rock online and mix lava with 8822. Used to do haydite, pine bark and lava rock but the particle sizes were so all over the place and it seemed a little dry, especially during heat waves. But I still over water everything..

 

[penumbra]

I buy my lava, pumice and bark from Bonsai Jack, Amazon or eBay. Larger amounts are much cheaper, I usually get the 3-1/2 gallon size. It is very consistent and delivery in 2 days tops from Amazon. I love their lava, which you can get in black or red or mixed.

 

[Palmer67]

Check out "Safe T Sorb". It's available on Amazon in a 40 pound bag for about 35 bucks. Same as the Napa stuff. Nigel Saunders on the Bonsai Zone uses this stuff and has a video.

 

[PABonsai]

I feel like I'll never understand this bonsai Soil stuff.....So, in short I've wasted my money and should throw everything out? I see the concern with weight differential but is that truly a long term concern? I could see perlite floating in maybe the top 1/2" but how would it all stratify with roots holding all the substrate in place? From what I had read in other threads the main concern with perlite was actually just the color, distantly followed by blowing out of the pot if used straight.

I was hoping this didn't turn into a "use this instead" thread like all the others do. I was hoping to find out if my substrates would do the tasks I assume they will. Will my substrates NOT perform the functions I assume?

I mean, don't get me wrong. As I mentioned I'd love using lava or pumice but the simple fact is that costs me about 4-8x as much. That was the point of me using what I can get locally, as everyone advocates. $17 got me about 7.5 gallons of perlite and $5 gets me 5 gallons of bark. 25 lb of granite ran me $9. If the ingredients I have won't perform the tasks then I guess I'll trash them.

I'm not trying to offend any of you guys, cause you know a heck of a lot more than me. I really do appreciate all the thoughts, and I am going to look into the Napa stuff. I definitely see it as an akadama replacement, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the rest.

 

[Uncle Robo]

I just ordered a 6 lb bag of lava rocks from Lowes online for $8 bucks shipped (MyLowes member). Check your local auto parts store to see what type of oil absorbant they carry, some are calcined clay, some are Diatomaceous earth. I picked up up a 25 lb bag of Thrifty sorb for $8. Either would be usable for bonsai, but the clay will require repotting more frequently.

I think you'd be ok with the bark, perlite, and granite, someone has said you can grow a tree in anything (Walter Pall or Peter Chan?)
Just adjust your watering to the mix and the tree.

 

[hemmy]

Will my substrates NOT perform the functions I assume?

Have you read this below linked resource? Measure the air-filled porosity (AFP) and water holding capacity (WHC) of your mixed, sieved substrate to get an idea if it falls in the acceptable range. If you are just starting out, we should clarify wether your mix is for pre-bonsai in nursery cans or more developed trees in shallow containers? You can get away with a larger range of AFP and WHC in the pre-bonsai container.

Introductory Soil Physics

Here is the second resource developed from the thread "Introductory Soil Physics". It is a document explaining how the important physical properties in soil and substrates combine to control the amount of air and water in the pore space of soils...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[penumbra]

Check out "Safe T Sorb". It's available on Amazon in a 40 pound bag for about 35 bucks. Same as the Napa stuff. Nigel Saunders on the Bonsai Zone uses this stuff and has a video.

Safe T Sorb is not even close to the Napa product. Napa is Diatomaceous Earth and Safe T Sorb is Calcined Clay like Turface and very over priced on Amazon. I get a 50# bag at Rural King for $5.99.

 

[sorce]

rdered a 6 lb bag of lava rocks

Fitting to crush it?
Make a ball mill!
("Sounds painful")

@PABonsai nothing is wasted!

If it's a grow bed, maters, quick collects, you'll use that soil.

There's just gonna be some thing you may not wanna use it for.

Say that inch or 2 of perlite does float up...
And is covering some nice new surface rootage on maple, then gets washed away and kills your start of nebari. (Don't use)

But a collected yard juniper, whose nebari and the entire root system won't necessarily matter....(Use it)

Grow out material intended for airlayers.
(Use it)

Evan as fill for future good projects.
(Use it)

You'll find that there are circumstances you won't want that soil in at all, and some that won't matter.

You may end up packing grit and perlite in a zipgun to kill squirrels. So be it.

Sorce