Pruning question, genuinely trying to understand

[power270lb]

So this is my Chinese Elm, received in late November. Plan to be outside permanently once it warms. I'm trying to understand pruning and how it helps growth/ramification. When I received this tree it was very dry, I'd move it and leaves would fall. I watered regularly and the tree grew. A lot of branches were very long and weepy so I trimmed 9 and planted the cuttings, which are all growing well. Since, the tree has exploded with growth and much better ramification. No idea where to go with this tree. The original owner made some cuts that the inner workings of the tree have a very dead forest vibe to it. A lot of short L shaped branches above the trunk but that's it, they stopped growing and now skinnier branches extend outwards. I want the trunk to grow and the tree to get bigger, where should I go from here. The first pic circled, where I made the cut the branch extended 10". So when I prune, once I make that cut that's it it won't grow again? I'm still very new and there's just so much I don't understand and really want to. Since trimming the leaves are all much smaller and the tree is bushier. If I trim again the long weepy branches is that branch essentially dead now? Trying to understand pruning and how it encourages growth throughout the tree. Or should I just leave alone and let grow? Anything I cut I'm going to plant again.

 

[JonW]

• Transitioning outdoors: put it in shade for a week, then partial sun for a week, then sun for the rest of summer to avoid sunburn on the leaves
• Once transitioned to sun and growing vigorously, you can start pruning. A common guide is letting the branch grow 5-7 leaves before cutting back to 1-3 leaves/nodes (when the base of the stem at that node has hardened off, or is no longer soft/green). You can prune a Chinese Elm like this through the summer or let it grow wild and cut back within 2-weeks of leaf drop (assuming you let it go dormant). I wouldn't prune in winter while it is indoors unless you have to - unless you have great lights, it weakens the tree and results in etiolated growth (long internodes due to the branch reaching for adequate light). When you prune in summer, remove all the etiolated growth.
• Pruning might be necessary, especially on elms that will send out a few really long shoots, but pruning reduces energy stored and ability to make new energy (your removing leaves which are like solar panels), which means less growth including the trunk. If you want a thicker trunk, more growth, less pruning is ideal. Also, a larger pot would help.
• When you cut a branch, a few buds behind the cut point will make new branches. You see this in your first picture where you circled: you got 2 new offshoot branches where you cut. The branch won't keep growing straight where you cut, it grows somewhat sideways at the new shoots, which creates movement and tape from pruning. Your new branches grew at nearly a right angle - partly because you left more of a stub than you needed to. You can wire the branches if you don't like that angle.
• The design of the tree currently is heading toward a broom style I think: multiple upright branches/trunks from the same or similar point on the trunk that are approximately equal width. If you don't like this design, you could pick two of the upright branches/trunks that are coming off of place where the trunk was cut in the past.
• Look up basic bonsai pruning guidelines. These aren't rules, but if you generally follow the guidelines when you prune, it usually helps set the tree in the right direction and makes it easier to make artistic decisions about the shape once unusual or unnecessary growth is removed.

 

[power270lb]

• Transitioning outdoors: put it in shade for a week, then partial sun for a week, then sun for the rest of summer to avoid sunburn on the leaves
• Once transitioned to sun and growing vigorously, you can start pruning. A common guide is letting the branch grow 5-7 leaves before cutting back to 1-3 leaves/nodes (when the base of the stem at that node has hardened off, or is no longer soft/green). You can prune a Chinese Elm like this through the summer or let it grow wild and cut back within 2-weeks of leaf drop (assuming you let it go dormant). I wouldn't prune in winter while it is indoors unless you have to - unless you have great lights, it weakens the tree and results in etiolated growth (long internodes due to the branch reaching for adequate light). When you prune in summer, remove all the etiolated growth.
• Pruning might be necessary, especially on elms that will send out a few really long shoots, but pruning reduces energy stored and ability to make new energy (your removing leaves which are like solar panels), which means less growth including the trunk. If you want a thicker trunk, more growth, less pruning is ideal. Also, a larger pot would help.
• When you cut a branch, a few buds behind the cut point will make new branches. You see this in your first picture where you circled: you got 2 new offshoot branches where you cut. The branch won't keep growing straight where you cut, it grows somewhat sideways at the new shoots, which creates movement and tape from pruning. Your new branches grew at nearly a right angle - partly because you left more of a stub than you needed to. You can wire the branches if you don't like that angle.
• The design of the tree currently is heading toward a broom style I think: multiple upright branches/trunks from the same or similar point on the trunk that are approximately equal width. If you don't like this design, you could pick two of the upright branches/trunks that are coming off of place where the trunk was cut in the past.
• Look up basic bonsai pruning guidelines. These aren't rules, but if you generally follow the guidelines when you prune, it usually helps set the tree in the right direction and makes it easier to make artistic decisions about the shape once unusual or unnecessary growth is removed.

Wow, dude thank u so much. So I have 3 spider farmer sf-1000s enclosed in mylar curtains with mylar everywhere. Full setup

https://imgur.com/a/KhKaaBZ

this but add another light. I made that cut in late January and the tree exploded. It's like I need someone with me explaining "u cut here, this happens" my intention wasn't for the branch I cut to stop growing. If another branch grows 6-8 leaves and I trim back to 2-3, will it continue to grow out or no? If yes how do I know going forward? Like my Japanese willows, grew 3 foot long branches in less than 2 months. I trimmed back 4 inches and it stopped growing out.

 

[JonW]

Wow, dude thank u so much. So I have 3 spider farmer sf-1000s enclosed in mylar curtains with mylar everywhere. Full setup

https://imgur.com/a/KhKaaBZ

this but add another light. I made that cut in late January and the tree exploded. It's like I need someone with me explaining "u cut here, this happens" my intention wasn't for the branch I cut to stop growing. If another branch grows 6-8 leaves and I trim back to 2-3, will it continue to grow out or no? If yes how do I know going forward? Like my Japanese willows, grew 3 foot long branches in less than 2 months. I trimmed back 4 inches and it stopped growing out.

I can't open the link on this computer, but sounds like a cool setup! I thought about getting some HLG 100 lights for my tropical plants. I keep my elms dormant in the winter. I'm not certain but willow might need winter dormancy.

If you have these lights, you can prune any time of the year. If you prune, the same thing will happen: 2-3 new branches will shoot out from buds on the nodes directly behind the cut point. Buds are between the leaf and the branch, so anywhere you see a leaf/node, a new branch and grow. So if you cut to a leaf that points to the left of the branch, you get a new branch at that spot, growing to the left. Pruning with this in mind is called directional pruning: you can pick the direction of the new branch each time you prune. You want to direct growth in a natural looking direction outward, away from the trunk. If you let the branch grow out long enough, it will start to branch out anyway, but usually at the tip rather than at the base.

Early on in developing a tree, you want to prune to set the structure. Later one, you prune to keep the shape in check and develop ramification (fine branching), so you'd prune more often.

 

[Shibui]

Most trees go through growth phases each year. If it is in a growth phase when you trim then new shoots will emerge and grow almost straight away. If the growth phase has ended it can be some time before the new shoots grow. When this happens can vary with the season, weather and care so it hard to say exactly what month or week.
The normal response to trimming is for new shoots to emerge from the leaves near the cut end. It is those new shoots that continue the growth of the branch as you have seen with your elm. Generally spring is an active growing time so trimming ten gives a quick response. Many species slow in summer when conditions are not so good. Regrowth may take longer if you trim ten. Most trees stop growing in winter so new growth may not occur until the following spring. Those are gross generalizations and as living things our trees can respond differently according to many other variables including watering, light eat and nutrients but generally they will grow new shoots at some stage after pruning.

To get a much thicker trunk reasonably quick takes lots of growth which rarely happens in a small pot. Most of us trying for ticker trunks take the trees out of small pots and put them into larger containers or in the garden where they have plenty of room for roots which will support lots of top growth which ten supports quicker trunk thickening. It is possible to grow a thicker trunk in a smaller bonsai pot but you will need to allow 30 or 40 years. Planted in the ground that an be reduced to 4-6 years depending on the size you are after, soil type, climate and care. Fast growing does have some pitfalls so i find it best to start with several specimens to allow for those that don't go according to plan.
If you don't fancy spending the time or effort the other way to develop a tick trunk is to pay someone who has already done the work.

All these concepts are so much easier to explain in person with a tree in hand. You should seek out local bonsai clubs and talk to experienced growers for a more in depth grasp of pruning and growth.

 

[YamadoriJaeger]

Here is my elm. It is a lot more full now than it was 2 weeks ago. Am I wrong to let it grow out all year then wait for leaf drop in the winter before pruning?

https://imgur.com/a/Z4D2qvE

 

[sorce]

See how the interior here looks all jumbled like octopus mating season?


But here, it looks pretty nice, mostly flowing up and out.


I think you should remove what's making the first pic look bad, while keeping what looks nice in the second pic.

Pruning isn't pruning.

It's building proportionate branching.

After a month outside, go hard and start a nice canopy.


Maybe remove one of those 2 branches that seem to come at the same height, and shave your wound back to a nicer profile.

This is a good piece of material, do it proud!

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

Here is my elm. It is a lot more full now than it was 2 weeks ago. Am I wrong to let it grow out all year then wait for leaf drop in the winter before pruning?

2 different sides of the same coin. Both will end up with similar outcomes.
If you leave it alone over summer the new shoots will grow long and the tree will become untidy. That is sometimes not a bad thing as the extra leaf mass will feed and strengthen the tree. Some strong shoots will thicken branches too much so you will need to keep an eye on the entire tree if you decide on this.

Trimming regularly will keep the outline neat so the tree is presentable and attractive through summer and will reduce the chances of over thickening branches.
@sorce has pointed out some congestion and areas with many branches close together which can slowly cause problems with the structure. Harder development pruning like that is often done in winter simply because there are no leaves so it is easier to see what you are doing but can also be done any time of year if you have time and inclination.

Bonsai is rarely black an white. Maybe you should try some light pruning and trimming when you can spot things that need doing but leave major pruning until you are more confident and can see the tree better.

 

[YamadoriJaeger]

2 different sides of the same coin. Both will end up with similar outcomes.
If you leave it alone over summer the new shoots will grow long and the tree will become untidy. That is sometimes not a bad thing as the extra leaf mass will feed and strengthen the tree. Some strong shoots will thicken branches too much so you will need to keep an eye on the entire tree if you decide on this.

Trimming regularly will keep the outline neat so the tree is presentable and attractive through summer and will reduce the chances of over thickening branches.
@sorce has pointed out some congestion and areas with many branches close together which can slowly cause problems with the structure. Harder development pruning like that is often done in winter simply because there are no leaves so it is easier to see what you are doing but can also be done any time of year if you have time and inclination.

Bonsai is rarely black an white. Maybe you should try some light pruning and trimming when you can spot things that need doing but leave major pruning until you are more confident and can see the tree better.

Isn’t my tree wasting energy if I trim before lignification?

 

[leatherback]

Isn’t my tree wasting energy if I trim before lignification?

A few weeks after leaf-out the tree is energy positive: The leaves have earned their right of existence.
But do not worry about wasting energy. This is for the leaf counters. Key is to let the tree grow out a bit between trimmings. If healthy, prune if you think it is needed. Most trees have energy reserves to regrow the leaves several times before depleting stores: Is can handle a structural prune. Just don't go constanly pinching all new growth. That will weaken it.

 

[Shibui]

What is 'wasting energy'? Trees derive energy from the sun so 'energy' always replaced.
When growing bonsai we manipulate growth to get growth in desired places and to get smaller growth. When you need to get shorter internodes and smaller leaves to make bonsai look good you need to reduce the tree's resources. There are many ways to do that but it must be done to get good results.
Removing anything will reduce the tree's resources. Does not matter whether you take away before or after lignification, winter spring or summer. There are minor differences in response to pruning at different times of the year that can be exploited to achieve slightly different outcome but trimming is still vital to achieve good bonsai.

This Chinese elm is in the final stages of development. It has a good trunk. It has plenty of good branches. Now is the time to work on refinement. Growth needs constant management to direct desirable shoots, to eliminate unwanted small growth. Definitely reduce areas with multiple shoots growing close together so reverse taper will not develop. Allowing stronger shoots to grow unpruned will thicken upper branches and they can quickly get out of proportion. You will also want to maintain your tree looking neat most of the year so you can enjoy it and show it off to others.
All that requires constant and regular trimming all year round. Trees do need to have some shoot growth to maintain health so they will not always be in 'show' condition. Need to strike a balance between growth and bonsai maintenance

 

[JuniperMasterRace]

Bumping this awesome thread. Good time to reflect on it as spring approaches.