Pruning Tropicals, specifically BRT

[Rodrigo]

My BRT seems to be really loving the indoor set up I have for it- I'm having to prune every other week. However I have a couple of questions about pruning during winters indoors.

My tree needs ramification closer to the trunk in some areas but I'm not doing any heavy pruning till mid summer. My pruning now is mostly for space management because the really long shoots start touching the lights and burning, or they'll go into the circulation fan and get the tips cut off, or they hit the wall and bend. I know that common practice is to let shoots grow to 7-8 leaves and then prune back to one or two nodes. My question is, if I prune to 1 or 2 new nodes every time, the tree will be bigger and bigger with every hair cut. Can I be pruning to old wood as well to keep the size until I can get it outside and let it run longer?
Follow up, if I'm letting the first branch go long to thicken it up, should I cut off all the leaves except for the growing tip at the end to promote length or let all the buds go down the branch?

This is after my last prune:


This is now, front then back:

 

[c54fun]

My BRT seems to be really loving the indoor set up I have for it- I'm having to prune every other week. However I have a couple of questions about pruning during winters indoors.

My tree needs ramification closer to the trunk in some areas but I'm not doing any heavy pruning till mid summer. My pruning now is mostly for space management because the really long shoots start touching the lights and burning, or they'll go into the circulation fan and get the tips cut off, or they hit the wall and bend. I know that common practice is to let shoots grow to 7-8 leaves and then prune back to one or two nodes. My question is, if I prune to 1 or 2 new nodes every time, the tree will be bigger and bigger with every hair cut. Can I be pruning to old wood as well to keep the size until I can get it outside and let it run longer?
Follow up, if I'm letting the first branch go long to thicken it up, should I cut off all the leaves except for the growing tip at the end to promote length or let all the buds go down the branch?

This is after my last prune:
View attachment 174990

This is now, front then back:
View attachment 174991View attachment 174995

@Rodrigo A good thing you can do is prune for shape. Look at your tree and if you can see the overall shape then prune for that, like the picture I attached. This is just an idea with the black lines drawn but if you where to prune along the black lines it would give you some shape to the tree. Then let it fill in where needed. Maybe as it grows back you can see where new lines should be pruned. Those black lines can be whatever you think the tree should look like. Its a very simple way to get shape to your tree.

 

[JudyB]

If your question is about if you can prune hard during winter, the answer is yes, if it's growing vigorously. Yours is so you can prune as you would during the outdoor growing season. I prune mine in winter same as in summer.

 

[Rodrigo]

@Rodrigo A good thing you can do is prune for shape. Look at your tree and if you can see the overall shape then prune for that, like the picture I attached. This is just an idea with the black lines drawn but if you where to prune along the black lines it would give you some shape to the tree. Then let it fill in where needed. Maybe as it grows back you can see where new lines should be pruned. Those black lines can be whatever you think the tree should look like. Its a very simple way to get shape to your tree.
View attachment 174998

Thanks a lot for the tip! I think I'll definitely do that before pruning to get an idea of the shape. I'd like it to have the apex a bit more over the middle so I'll play around with some lines like you mentioned to get the shape I want. By doing this though, I'd be disregarding whether it's old or new growth and just focus on trying to get the shape by pruning what's outside of the lines, right?

 

[Rodrigo]

If your question is about if you can prune hard during winter, the answer is yes, if it's growing vigorously. Yours is so you can prune as you would during the outdoor growing season. I prune mine in winter same as in summer.

Thank you! I wasn't completely sure how much I could take off considering it is growing so well and I don't have to worry about any cold temperatures indoors. What about defoliating or re-potting? Should that be held off until the summer or is it the same idea as with pruning?

 

[c54fun]

Thanks a lot for the tip! I think I'll definitely do that before pruning to get an idea of the shape. I'd like it to have the apex a bit more over the middle so I'll play around with some lines like you mentioned to get the shape I want. By doing this though, I'd be disregarding whether it's old or new growth and just focus on trying to get the shape by pruning what's outside of the lines, right?

Yes, you can prune for shape. Just be careful of die back.

 

[Anthony]

Rodrigo,

if could change the angle of your images to dead on.
It would help greatly.

Can you find an image of this tree in nature ?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[sorce]

I accidentally hit the download button! Here!

Consider a couple more lights for your loser branches...my phone knows they are losing to the upper ones! I meant lower!



Can't just keep trimmadoodling!

Especially indoors where top light is so much stronger than bottom light.

Your first branch is nearing too thick for the trunk.....
Then, as you go up, everything gets thicker.

You are almost to the point of no return, where you will be trying to shrink branches up top.

You gotta freeze that top, hit it hard, and let the low branch catch up, and with any luck, you can end up with branches that may be just a bit to large for the trunk. But at least back to largest on the bottom, diminishing in size going up.

But one more year growing like this, and it'll be backward forever! Or a complete restart!

It would be good to see other pictures....

But basically, I would find the "new leader" or single branch to build a completely new apex....and cut that back to one bud.


(See that orange branch? That is about a proper size for up there...)

Take the next branch down back to the closest possible 2 buds...
Next cut back to three...

And so on...depending on the size of the branch, what buds it has, etc....get as anal as you can!

Taking this...

5
4
3
2
1

To this, with this...

1
2
3
4
5

You are getting the growth....

Control it!

Sorce

 

[JudyB]

I defoliate mine every winter once. If it's growing vigorously, and has no health issues. It saves me from having the old leaves shed off a few at a time, and causing a mess. I don't repot in winter.

 

[Rodrigo]

Rodrigo,

if could change the angle of your images to dead on.

Can you find an image of this tree in nature ?

Anthony,

Here are some pictures more dead on than my original. I also took pictures of the top and sides. I am always looking for pictures of this tree in nature because I'd like it to be a "Naturalistic" tree in the end, but I haven't had much luck. Most pictures are of bonsai, and the few that aren't are either a "flat top" tree but with a bit of a rounded canopy, or just a broom style also with a rounded canopy. That's why I was telling @c54fun that I'd like the apex more over the middle rather than either side.
Front:

Right Side:

Back:

Left Side:

Top:

 

[Rodrigo]

Consider a couple more lights for your loser branches...my phone knows they are losing to the upper ones! I meant lower!

Thanks Sorce!
I was trying to hang the light I do have vertically along the side and rotate the tree to get light to the lower branches but it wouldn't fit until I pruned the tree! I'll look for smaller ones to put on either side. Nice addition of the lights on the picture, by the way! I had to do a double take!

Your first branch is nearing too thick for the trunk.....
Then, as you go up, everything gets thicker.

You are almost to the point of no return, where you will be trying to shrink branches up top.

You gotta freeze that top, hit it hard, and let the low branch catch up, and with any luck, you can end up with branches that may be just a bit to large for the trunk. But at least back to largest on the bottom, diminishing in size going up.

But one more year growing like this, and it'll be backward forever! Or a complete restart!

It would be good to see other pictures....

But basically, I would find the "new leader" or single branch to build a completely new apex....and cut that back to one bud.

That is my worry! My thought process was to keep the top short to promote growth at the sides and bottom, and it worked (believe it or not LOL). The bottom branches started taking off more than the top, but before I knew it the top was back to being dominant. Since I didn't think you could hard prune a tropical until the summer until @JudyB kindly corrected me, my plan was to keep the top short until summer when I could go back and prune it all down. Now I guess I'll have to do it soon before it's too late!

(See that orange branch? That is about a proper size for up there...)

Take the next branch down back to the closest possible 2 buds...
Next cut back to three...

And so on...depending on the size of the branch, what buds it has, etc....get as anal as you can!

So if I go through and prune where you marked the green lines, following your tips on cutting to buds, I would just prune the bottom down a bit to stop the thickening of the first branch but I'd leave it longer than the top? Or should I go through and prune it all down closer to the trunk?

What about the option of enlarging the trunk a bit more? I do feel it's a little skinny for the height of the tree but to do that, I'd have to let it grow and that would put me even more out of proportion with the branches wouldn't it? I added some pictures to my reply for Anthony so you can look at it a little better.

 

[sorce]

I think the lights are the only thing I can be sure of.....

The green lines are rough roughstimates.

If you can cut this back to budless nodes, and be sure to get a bud there...id cut it back to one node at the top, 2 nodes below, 2 nodes and a bud, 3 nodes and a bud, 3 nodes and 2 buds, and three nodes. And 3 buds/branches. As going down the tree.

Ish.

But direction has to be considered, sizes of branches that we cant see. And growth habits only you know, that will help you sort when and where!

A couple catch 22's I ponder.

How to keep the top cut back twice as much without the resulting ramification, which you want to be twice as less?

And...

How to grow a fatter trunk on a tree where branches can't go getting much bigger?
Without somehow effing you back to "the drawing board"?

What I thought about was this thing that RN said about BRT, which seems true in studying the growth....



It is said that letting that yellow branch grow out will flatten, or swell the trunk from pot front to back, which would make left or right your future front, as eventually, that will be the widest base....maybe!

If the Orange branches are allowed to grow, it will thicken it in the same direction, where, if that green branch is attached at the same height, in the back, it will allow a left to right thickening, which will make it more pleasing under the blue part....

But the blue part can be adjusted using this same understanding....

So basically, its just more to think about!

I wish I had one to know for sure....
But it seems the more focus you put on this phenomenon, the easier it will be to build a good trunk....
Or maybe nore importantly...the illusion of a good trunk!

Just key toolbelt thoughts.....

Till I get my own BRT!

Sorce

 

[Rodrigo]

If you can cut this back to budless nodes, and be sure to get a bud there...id cut it back to one node at the top, 2 nodes below, 2 nodes and a bud, 3 nodes and a bud, 3 nodes and 2 buds, and three nodes. And 3 buds/branches. As going down the tree.

Ish.

But direction has to be considered, sizes of branches that we cant see. And growth habits only you know, that will help you sort when and where!

A couple catch 22's I ponder.

How to keep the top cut back twice as much without the resulting ramification, which you want to be twice as less?

And...

How to grow a fatter trunk on a tree where branches can't go getting much bigger?
Without somehow effing you back to "the drawing board"?

What I thought about was this thing that RN said about BRT, which seems true in studying the growth....



It is said that letting that yellow branch grow out will flatten, or swell the trunk from pot front to back, which would make left or right your future front, as eventually, that will be the widest base....maybe!

If the Orange branches are allowed to grow, it will thicken it in the same direction, where, if that green branch is attached at the same height, in the back, it will allow a left to right thickening, which will make it more pleasing under the blue part....

But the blue part can be adjusted using this same understanding....

So basically, its just more to think about!

I wish I had one to know for sure....
But it seems the more focus you put on this phenomenon, the easier it will be to build a good trunk....
Or maybe nore importantly...the illusion of a good trunk!

Just key toolbelt thoughts.....

Till I get my own BRT!

Sorce

Definitely a catch 22! I thought I kind of had what I was going to do figured out but after your tool belt thoughts now I don't know for sure! Now I have plenty to think about and study before I make any major cuts. I will be pruning down the long shoots, especially the top portion, today to control the growth but I think I will leave the heavy pruning for when I can meet with someone that knows what they're doing a little better and we can discuss it together- Hopefully this weekend.

I do need to see if a bud will form at a node with no current bud because many of the lower branches don't have visible buds too close to the trunk. I'll do couple of test prunes and I'll let you know Sorce! So you're good to go when you get your BRT

What I thought about was this thing that RN said about BRT, which seems true in studying the growth....

May I ask where you saw this? I've never seen him talking about BRT's and I'd love to see what he has to say about them.

 

[sorce]

May I ask where you saw this? I've never seen him talking about BRT's and I'd love to see what he has to say about them.

Lol! It was in one of the first free streams.
He mentioned that is the ONE thing he knows about them!
I like the honesty! Love the tip!

Just keep thinking!

It sounds like you got a good handle on what's going on.
A good understanding.

Sorce

 

[Rodrigo]

I defoliate mine every winter once. If it's growing vigorously, and has no health issues. It saves me from having the old leaves shed off a few at a time, and causing a mess. I don't repot in winter.

@JudyB now that it's coming up on spring, I'll be putting my Raintree back outside. I remember you'd mentioned that you defoliate them so you don't have to mess with all the dropping leaves. Do you also defoliate when you put it back outside?

 

[Anthony]

Anyone have some images or know where to see some images,
of the Brazilian Rain Tree ?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Random User]

"Anyone have some images or know where to see some images, of the Brazilian Rain Tree ?"

I looked for images when I got mine in December and haven't found more than a few. I have wanted to ask someone from Brazil if they can take some pictures for us, but I don't write or speak Portuguese and don't trust a translator enough to try posting something on a Brazilian web site... hopefully someone in Brazil will supply some.

This is very premature since I only have had mine for a few months, but I have 4 BRTs and one I air layered (so 5 total). Of the 4, 2 have the same (or similar) growth patterns and the other 2 have growth patterns that are totally unlike the others. I am letting them develop as they naturally want to and have been trimming to maintain branch size (diameter) and tree shape.

I too, wanted to encourage growth lower on the trunk and have managed to do so with lights.

I made a new light cabinet a while back (a year or two ago, I forget exactly when) that is about 1.3 meters (wide) by about a meter deep. I have 7 (48") T5's horizontally along the back wall and the same inside the front door. I have 7 (24") T5's along each side. Overhead I have 2 FCLs that are close to the top of the canopies. All lights are on a 12/12 rotation. (All 6500K)

The high intensity of light low down has encouraged lower branch growth and back budding. The lower intensity on the top (and low light height), seems to be keeping the vertical growth in check. If and when a branch grows into the lights (they are hot enough to burn the leaves), I simply leave it be, because I am going to (and do) trim these branches back anyway.

IMHO, a BRT has only two things going against them as a "bonsai tree" from a North American's eye. 1: The compound leaves and 2: The natural growth habit of the trunk (since they don't remain round, but flatten out where a branch occurs) Like a dogs hind leg, they don't look crooked unless you're viewing them from the side, and somewhere along the trunkline you're bound to have that perspective.

The compound leaves (IMHO) aren't much of an issue (for me) because they seem to remain the same size relative to the tree size throughout their life cycle.

The trunkline is a much larger factor because unless you are viewing the tree first hand, you won't have a true appreciation for the shape and structure because it changes so dramatically with only a few degrees of rotation. IMHO, they are a tree that would have to be viewed first hand, or by watching a 360 degree video... and, IMHO, they are the one tree that would almost HAVE TO have no designated front. (Perhaps with the exception of certain styles)

Early on, I took the cautious approach when trimming hoping that the tree would back bud in the "right place", but knowing that it was unlikely to wish for something so outrageous. But almost every area where I was hoping for a bud to occur has miraculously pushed a suitable candidate. They are in my mind, quite simply, the most intriguing little tree.

I'd bet that if you put lights horizontally lower down along that trunkline, you'd have buds develop all over the branches and trunk... but this might not be what you're wanting.

I wonder if you will get a lot of stretch vertically when the tree goes outdoors, and loose the vegetation on the lower branches at the same time?

 

[Petebak]

nothing better than a flattened trunk on an old BRT!

 

[Petebak]

we have enough round trunks