Prunus Incisa help

[Trueblackpercula]

In your situation, you are not going to do a lot of work to the roots I think. I can imagine repotting now would be better than leaving it in that bag?.

Well at least I am being completely transparent here and will shoot for this weekend to repot it. In addition I am also assuming that it’s ok to cut down a few of the branches to support the new reduction of the roots as well. Is that correct ? I will shape it a little as well but nothing drastic so at least I am good for this year.
Will post a few pics when I am done.
Thank you so much for all the advise and help.
Michael

 

[leatherback]

to cut down a few of the branches to support the new reduction of the roots as well.

I hear this a lot, but to me it makes little sense. The tree will leaf out. The leaves are the solar panels that capture the energy for the plant needed to grow. Removing branches = removing buds = reducing the energy capture capacity.

I typically do not reduce branches when reducing roots, unless there are styling reasons for removing them.

 

[Trueblackpercula]

I hear this a lot, but to me it makes little sense. The tree will leaf out. The leaves are the solar panels that capture the energy for the plant needed to grow. Removing branches = removing buds = reducing the energy capture capacity.

I typically do not reduce branches when reducing roots, unless there are styling reasons for removing them.

very interesting, as I thought that the root structure can only support equal amount of foliage based on size of the root ball. This is why I love this place there is so much to learn and thank you for the information. YES i am also cutting back the branches to give it a little shape as well.
Michael

 

[LittleDingus]

I hear this a lot, but to me it makes little sense. The tree will leaf out. The leaves are the solar panels that capture the energy for the plant needed to grow. Removing branches = removing buds = reducing the energy capture capacity.

I typically do not reduce branches when reducing roots, unless there are styling reasons for removing them.

For deciduous, roots = water uptake which is critical to push buds.

In my opinion, that's the primary reason to repot at or before bud break. The buds will slow and/or only push what the roots can support. Trim a deciduous tree's roots after full growth and it will often wilt because the roots can no longer support the transpiration needs. Then trimming back the top while trimming roots can help the tree maintain what's left.

 

[Trueblackpercula]

I guess when the told me welcome to crazy this is what they meant.
No I have two completely different suggestions .

michael

 

[LittleDingus]

I guess when the told me welcome to crazy this is what they meant.
No I have two completely different suggestions .

michael

They converge though. If you do root work at bud break, the tree has a chance to respond by redirecting what resources it can pull in to what growth it can manage.

If you do major root work on a fully leafed out tree, there may not be enough water uptake ability left to maintain all the existing foliage and the tree might wilt/shed foliage it doesn't have the resources to maintain. This is the case where pruning the top to be in line with the bottom can help. You're making the decisions on what to give up for the tree.

This is also why it's often advantageous to prune leafs from deciduous cuttings...and why you raise humidity for them. They have no roots yet...and broad, thin leaves have a lot of surface area to maintain/transpire from.

Most conifers are better at protecting their water supply than most deciduous. They don't transpire as much. So then, yes, solar panels to drive root growth makes sense. My experience with prunus in particular, though, is that if you do root work when they are fully leafed out, you're likely to lose all those leaves to wilt as the tree tries to reestablish its water intake. The tree may live, but it's going to retreat as much as it can while diverting resources to the essentials.

The short of it is, if the tree is just beginning to break buds, there should be no need to cut the top back. If it has already leafed out, you're asking for trouble keeping all that foliage while cutting of the tree's access to resources.

 

[Trueblackpercula]

They converge though. If you do root work at bud break, the tree has a chance to respond by redirecting what resources it can pull in to what growth it can manage.

If you do major root work on a fully leafed out tree, there may not be enough water uptake ability left to maintain all the existing foliage and the tree might wilt/shed foliage it doesn't have the resources to maintain. This is the case where pruning the top to be in line with the bottom can help. You're making the decisions on what to give up for the tree.

This is also why it's often advantageous to prune leafs from deciduous cuttings...and why you raise humidity for them. They have no roots yet...and broad, thin leaves have a lot of surface area to maintain/transpire from.

Most conifers are better at protecting their water supply than most deciduous. They don't transpire as much. So then, yes, solar panels to drive root growth makes sense. My experience with prunus in particular, though, is that if you do root work when they are fully leafed out, you're likely to lose all those leaves to wilt as the tree tries to reestablish its water intake. The tree may live, but it's going to retreat as much as it can while diverting resources to the essentials.

The short of it is, if the tree is just beginning to break buds, there should be no need to cut the top back. If it has already leafed out, you're asking for trouble keeping all that foliage while cutting of the tree's access to resources.

Thank you so much as now I completely understand. Below is the tree i am talking about as it has no leaf buds yet. So I am guessing it’s ok the put it in a pot and do some root work and cut the top down a little with too much risk.
Michael

 

[LittleDingus]

I'd see what your root situation is like first. I know you said it was delivered in that bag and was frozen a good part of the winter. Hopefully you've got some decent root mass in there and you can fit it all into a pot...hopefully with some spread...without pruning much/any. Personally, I'd get that done first before touching the top.

If that all goes reasonably, I wouldn't be afraid to clean out some of that central branch litter. I'd try to keep as many of the larger branches as possible right up to their apical buds if I could. But I would try to clear out some of those smaller branches cluttering up the center.

Once the tree has leafed out and new growth hardened, then I'd think about shortening the tree...but only if necessary. That's probably early June. I still wouldn't do a major chop this year, but, assuming it leafs out ok, I'd be comfortable shortening it by 1/3 if needed.

A lot depends on what you find in that bag!

 

[leatherback]

The tree is very capable of deciding how much foliage it can sustain. Your challenge is to keep it from overly sunny conditions and wind in the first 3 months as it is establishing new roots.

If it makes you more comfortable, by all means, reduce each branch by half. But normally it is not needed.

 

[luvinthemountains]

Hmm. I need to learn more. I had thought the reason for waiting for buds to swell before repotting deciduous was because the tree has been storing food in the roots all winter, but by bud break it has migrated that food into the branches, meaning that root removal/damage at that point will not deprive the tree of the nutrients/energy it needs to successfully sprout spring growth. No?

 

[leatherback]

Hmm. I need to learn more. I had thought the reason for waiting for buds to swell before repotting deciduous was because the tree has been storing food in the roots all winter, but by bud break it has migrated that food into the branches, meaning that root removal/damage at that point will not deprive the tree of the nutrients/energy it needs to successfully sprout spring growth. No?

Trees store energy all over the tree, not just the roots. One of those old misconceptions about how energy storage functions. All living tissue in a tree is capable of storing energy.

The main reason to wait for bud swelling, as I see it, is that the tree is more active and can respond quicker to the work done, leading to less risk that the tree gets infected, dries out, ... etc. Once buds are swelling and are opening the tree is in de mood to start growing and roots will be quicker to grow.

 

[luvinthemountains]

Trees store energy all over the tree, not just the roots. One of those old misconceptions about how energy storage functions. All living tissue in a tree is capable of storing energy

That is what I thought...BUT does the tree not manage the distribution of energy throughout the growth cycle? Is that not why the sap begins to run in the spring? A large trident of mine did not start to bleed from a mid- winter trunk chop until right before bud break. The cut surface was perfectly dry before. Where did the sap come from if not the roots? I am asking in a serious desire to learn.

 

[leatherback]

Sap is mainly water. Water comes from the soil

Of course sugars move around in the tree. But it is way more complex than just leaves make sugars, sap transports it to the root and it is stored there. As said, all living woody tissue stores energy. The abstract here might be open for all: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00442-014-3186-1 which wuold give an initial indication of the balance between roots, stems and energy / N relocation in spring.

 

[luvinthemountains]

The abstract here might be open for all: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00442-014-3186-1 which wuold give an initial indication of the balance between roots, stems and energy / N relocation in spring.

Thank you, Jelle. I will have a look at that.

 

[rodeolthr]

Here is mine beginning to bloom in zone 8a, outside of Seattle

 

[Trueblackpercula]

Here is mine beginning to bloom in zone 8a, outside of Seattle

Looks great thank you for sharing. Because of your post I went outside to give the trees some water because today was 65 degrees. When I examined my incisa I was surprised to see the flower buds are starting to open. Omg I am so excited.
Michael

 

[Trueblackpercula]

Just checked again to see the progress of the flower buds and some branches are developing faster than others. But everything seems to be going fantastic.
Here are a few slices of heaven.
Michael

 

[leatherback]

Looks happy!

 

[Trueblackpercula]

I'd see what your root situation is like first. I know you said it was delivered in that bag and was frozen a good part of the winter. Hopefully you've got some decent root mass in there and you can fit it all into a pot...hopefully with some spread...without pruning much/any. Personally, I'd get that done first before touching the top.

If that all goes reasonably, I wouldn't be afraid to clean out some of that central branch litter. I'd try to keep as many of the larger branches as possible right up to their apical buds if I could. But I would try to clear out some of those smaller branches cluttering up the center.

Once the tree has leafed out and new growth hardened, then I'd think about shortening the tree...but only if necessary. That's probably early June. I still wouldn't do a major chop this year, but, assuming it leafs out ok, I'd be comfortable shortening it by 1/3 if needed.

A lot depends on what you find in that bag!

Thanks for the advice. I decided to clean up a little and maybe next weekend or so I will decided weather to place in a pot or the ground. Still undecided. I really don’t want to rush this one. I think she has potential but only time will tell. I do have a question? Do I start shaping and wiring it and than place it in the ground or place it in the ground and shape it next year ? Below is an example of what I would like to achieve.
Michael

 

[Jboy2424]

Thank you for the assistance. It is appreciated very much. It will take time for me to delve into the thread. thank you.