Prunus Serrulata - Thoughts?

[Haines' Trees]

Hey y’all!

So I’ve got a couple of Japanese flowering cherries that I grew from seed last season. Planted them late in the year, so they didn’t have much of a first season before going dormant

This year, I’ve had one in particular that has taken off quite well. Currently standing at just shy of 2 feet tall, Ive had to throw a bit of “scaffolding” onto it out of concerns that a windy day will do it some harm.


And a look at the low trunk (you can see the little stick that is the last evidence of its first, short growing season)


This is the first species of flowering tree I’ve ever had and the most successful deciduous I’ve grown from seed myself, so onto the question at hand: what the hell to do from here? It’s had explosive growth and I’m tempted to wire some movement into it while it’s dormant. In early spring I figure I’ll check the roots and perform a repot if needed. I know summer trimming is something to do with many deciduous but I skipped it on these on account of their age but now I’m wondering if I shouldn’t have. I have no plan as of right now for this tree since I didn’t think I would see this type of size so quickly. Thoughts? Advice?

 

[sorce]

what the hell to do from here?

I think every species has there "go to" moves because of what the outcome will be, there tendencies, etc..

They say Cherries are prone to infection, so small, infrequent cuts are probably better, as opposed to "chopping".

IMO, usually "scaffolding" things introduce fulcrums that increase leverage when they do fall, causing things to break that wouldn't have without it.

Sorce

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Congrats, growing trees from seed, the "nurseryman's phase" of bonsai production is an art, or science unto itself. It is a skill set not covered in bonsai books, because it usually precedes "BONSAI" by a few years to a decade or so. You have a nice looking seedling there.

I usually do not stake my seedlings, as flexing in the wind causes the trunk to strengthen and thicken slightly quicker. But the difference it makes is minor, so it really doesn't matter.

You should decide how large a diameter trunk you want. Think about what style of tree you want to make. If you are going to use wire to create movement, as is often done with pines and other species that are not typically "chopped", then the time to apply wire is NOW, before this years growth completely hardens . Late summer is ideal for applying wire to deciduous. THough fall, after leaf drop is easier, because leaves are out of the way, applying wire earlier will allow easier bending as lignification of the wood is not complete.

If you are going to follow the method of grow out and prune back hard (chop) - you simply let the tree grow until the diameter of the trunk is close to the final diameter you desire for you bonsai, typically 2 inches to 4 inches for shohin, 3 inches to 6 inches for larger scale trees. Then prune (chop) to about the point where you want the first bend in your trunk. The new leader will come off the trunk at an angle, thus giving you the first bend, or movement to the trunk. This is the method often used with trees that back bud easily on mature wood. Cherries would be considered relatively easy to back bud on wood less than 10 years old. You should be able to get a 2 to 6 inch diameter trunk in less than 10 years. Probably 3 to 5 years. You do not do the "chop" until the trunk is close to the diameter you want for your finished tree. Hence the question about what vision you have for the finished tree.

I would probably go with the grow out, to near finished diameter, then prune back (chop) method. But either approach will work, they will give you somewhat different looking trees.

 

[Haines' Trees]

Alright, so last night after posting this I did some poking around the web for images of P serrulata bonsai and found one that I liked so I decided to shoot for that. It meant wiring, so here we go
The Before

Got rid of the scaffold, the tree stands without it which is nice; I never had pressure on the tree, just a loop to keep the trunk standing in the high winds (a la the tornados that ripped through my area a short time ago). Interestingly I did notice those fulcrums you talked about @sorce so well spotted on that information.
The After

Not like there was much I could do with it really.... Including the pot it’s about 17 inches tall now, while before the tree itself measured nearly 24. It’s a long way from anything at all, but it’s a start! The idea is that the crown of the tree will occupy the lateral section of the current tree, while the trunk will continue up to about halfway through the bend.

The first tree that is entirely my own that I’ve wired and it was definitely different haha. A bit more nerve racking than something you pick up from Home Depot for $20

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

You'll get braver as you wire more often.

Myself I would have started the bend lower, bend right, then bend left, but you definitely has a start there. Good. nothing wrong with what you have done.

 

[Haines' Trees]

A lower bend is actually kind of what I was looking for but as you say, I need to work up some courage lol. A more squat profile would be more in line with the image I saw as well. You think it’s worth just going for it or should I address that in the future?

 

[Haines' Trees]

I woke up nice and early today for work and decided that I’d go for gold and follow @Leo in N E Illinois advice and shoot for the low bend.

Not the most major difference from earlier pictures, but I made sure to introduce some movement in three dimensions. My initial bend was only a bit of right then left. Kinda boring really; a bit of movement toward the back then a twist to the front should add some more character.

Thanks for the poke Leo!!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

And once the diameter of the trunk you desire is achieved, everything will be cut much shorter, so the current awkward look will disappear. Ugly duckling first, in order for the swan to later appear.

 

[Haines' Trees]

Status update: a couple weeks since the first wiring. Turns out the gauge I used initially wasn’t quite strong enough to keep the shape I wanted, so I replaced it with a gauge higher and it’s been fine since. Still growing, with a new flush of small leaves coming in now.

I didn’t kill it, so that’s a plus!

 

[Haines' Trees]

Checking the root ball on various trees today and the cherries were among the ones I checked.


Definitely have a few circling roots in there, piling up on one another. Not pot bound by any stretch but I’m tempted to get in there and do some root work in the spring. Some of those roots are big relative to the tree. I’d hate to let some of the long roots thicken for another year. Looks like a decent fibrous mass near the top which is good to see. Back in the pot till springtime. Will try to find a wider pot for it.

 

[River's Edge]

I’d hate to let some of the long roots thicken for another year

You have received some basic advice from a number of individuals. Waiting until the diameter of the trunk is attained without developing the roots and taper over time does not work as well with prunus.

My comments are intended to give you an option to consider because I feel the result will be much better.

There are other methods that focus on developing the trunk and root formation first prior to any wiring. The advantage to the Prunus specific methods is dealing with two issue's that can be a problem with Prunus. First, developing the roots take careful timing and a specific approach. This also needs to be done early for best results. Older prunus are very fickle with root work unless well established. Second creating a thicker trunk with some taper takes a different approach. Ideally planting in the ground and reworking roots and trunk each year during the initial stages. ( five to six years)
A very detailed step by step approach was written up in International Bonsai 1982 #1. Author Tomigaro Komaki
Basically a progressive cut back process begins early, involving roots and trunk for the first five or six years. The methods of cutback are staged involving flat cuts initially than carving to angle with slight depression for best healing after the first cut has had time to die back a bit.
The advice you have been given so far will not work as well for Prunus. You will end up with root issues, which are difficult to address with prunus and spend a lot of time wiring material that will be removed later.
If the tree were mine at this point I would wait till late winter/early spring just before bud break, repot cutting the roots to even length 1" , remove downward, upward roots to shape a nice nebari, chop the trunk to one or two inches. First chop straight across just above a bud. This will be cleaned up later carving to an appropriate angle for healing.
Care in repotting needs to be taken to bury the roots well and leave the chopped trunk just above the soil line.
The process is repeated each year with progression of cut back and root work to establish trunk and root ball.

I am sure you can find similar write ups that could guide your approach.
The key is deal with the roots and trunk early, Beginning design and branch selection will not begin for at least five years if in the ground growing, up to three times longer for container grown. I understand that not everyone has the opportunity to ground grow and also that everyone has their favourite approach. I just recognized that you were aware of one of the issues already! Root formation and when to intervene!

 

[Haines' Trees]

I looked away for one day and all of a sudden the buds look like this! Time to do some work. Will attempt the technique described by @River's Edge with this little guy

 

[Haines' Trees]

So first we combed out the roots, of which there were plenty. They were circling but it wasn’t pot bound. I am glad I didn’t leave these sit for another year.

After trimming away the thicker roots and shortening up everything else we ended up with this.

 

[Haines' Trees]

Please pardon the messy wiring; I struggled for a bit to get the tree into a position that felt sturdy but I got there. If you look closely near the base you’ll see a horizontal bit of the tree that was handy in helping me tie it down. I have a feeling that’ll annoy me in time. Hopefully the roots can get a good hold in there shortly.

Added more substrate. I changed from the seed starting mix in previous pictures. Nice for starting little babies, but too many fines for anything long term. I went basic with Bonsai Jack #221 (I believe). It’s their universal blend, I like it for my deciduous. After that I took the tree down to just a couple inches.

 

[Haines' Trees]

I have two more of these to do tomorrow. Will update with more photos soon.

 

[Haines' Trees]

Here is the tree referenced in the original posting, before and after

 

[Haines' Trees]

And one other

 

[Haines' Trees]

I’m hoping I didn’t maim them too hard! Will keep this thread updated.

 

[Haines' Trees]

I’m happy to say that all three that I repotted seem to be doing great! The two larger ones are moving and grooving while the slightly smaller one is taking a bit more time but is still starting to leaf out. Will treat with fungicide/insecticide probably next week (due for some rain) to avoid the issues I had last year with pests/fungus

 

[just.wing.it]

Biggie and Smalls....nice.