Quercus Rubra (Northern Red Oak) #1

rockm

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What I would do--sounds like a broken record--but let this one grow unaltered for at least five years--preferably in the ground, then trunk chop, lift, prune roots. repeat for another three or so. Oaks develop quickly in the ground with this. As things stand now, with the plan you have, this will be always be a spindly tree with huge leaves. not "oakish" at all--and isnt' that what you collected it for.

That is why starting with larger stock is preferable for oaks...just sayin.
 

Orion_metalhead

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Thanks for the advice. Im not surprised of the recommendation to ground grow. Just not my preference.
 

Potawatomi13

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What I would do--sounds like a broken record--but let this one grow unaltered for at least five years--preferably in the ground, then trunk chop, lift, prune roots. repeat for another three or so. Oaks develop quickly in the ground with this. As things stand now, with the plan you have, this will be always be a spindly tree with huge leaves. not "oakish" at all--and isnt' that what you collected it for.

That is why starting with larger stock is preferable for oaks...just sayin.

Not a bad idea:eek:.
 

Orion_metalhead

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Sounds like essentially what everyone does with their trees. It works well for many, but Im enjoying the slow process right now.
 

Orion_metalhead

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Yesterday, nothing... this morning buds are popping. Going to try and do some root work on this and maybe consider an angle change on repot... I'd like to get the roots sorted out before making major decisions up top.

20200408_074836.jpg
 

eryk2kartman

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Ive couple of Oaks grown from seeds and also that i bought as bare root couple years ago, there are white oaks, red oaks and couple more that i don't remember the names. To be honest i went quite hard on them with root pruning, some leaving with nearly no roots or very little.
They all recovered well and going strong, this spring i planted one in the ground to see how they go.
Best of luck with yours.
 

Orion_metalhead

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Did a thing but helped ALOT in terms of this tree's future design.

Full tree before the work. It leans backwards with that noticeable kink...
20200408_194306.jpg

Lifted from pot.
20200408_194349.jpg

Found a worm living in the pot... hes going into the compost pile.
20200408_194352.jpg

Full root ball. Noticed the fine hairs were blackish, but everything seemed healthy and happy.
20200408_195539.jpg

Liking this new angle. Good nebari and root plane at this position as well.
20200408_195557.jpg

Choppy choppy!
20200408_195946.jpg

New front / angle. Left a bit of root matter alone to make sure tree responds nicely.
20200408_200008.jpg

Cut its pot lower down to allow for a flatter root ball hopefully.
20200408_200410.jpg

New front. Plan now is to chop to lower branch at this angle.
20200408_201629.jpg
 

eryk2kartman

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Well done,
Oaks have a tendency to send tap root whenever they can, so i found flatter containers work much better.
 

Orion_metalhead

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Yes, i cut off almost all of the remaining taproot. I want to get the tree to rely on the radial roots it sent out. There are about 6 good radial roots now so hopefully next cut back, I can get the root base completely flat and start working on building the basic structure.
 

Orion_metalhead

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Starting second flush of growth

Full tree
20200610_211136.jpg

Main intersection
20200610_211212.jpg

New growth close up
20200610_192917.jpg

Not sure, but I think that the kink in the main trunk may be ever so slowly rounding out... im thinking I may try working around it somehow.
 

Haines' Trees

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Seems it wasn’t quite as finicky as you originally expected looking at the amount of root mass you removed. Good to see the second flush coming in nicely too! This looks to have great potential!

A lot of back and forth on whether to chop or not to chop. My opinion: oaks are meant to be a large bonsai. Not just because of leaf size, but their entire appearance. Some of the most impressive trees I’ve seen in nature are oaks. Massive trunks, old craggy bark, gnarled roots at the surface, towering branches. Just amazing to see.

That being said....... I think going for a chop is the right way to go. You’ve got a couple low branches underneath the kink now and you repotted a little while ago. Your second flush is coming in strong, the tree has been responding well to what’s been thrown at it. A chop sets you back, sure. But you’ve had a lot of good growth since you pulled it from next to the fence last year, and if you are a fan of growing from container exclusively, a chop will do great things for trunk girth. Plus, a fresh start would allow you to make your own kink, just the way you like 😉.

It’s nice to see someone else doing something with oak! Just for fun I planted a few acorns and have been watching them go this year, and they go quick! Make me some inspiration!
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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<snip> A lot of back and forth on whether to chop or not to chop. My opinion: oaks are meant to be a large bonsai. Not just because of leaf size, but their entire appearance. Some of the most impressive trees I’ve seen in nature are oaks. Massive trunks, old craggy bark, gnarled roots at the surface, towering branches. Just amazing to see.

That being said....... I think going for a chop is the right way to go. You’ve got a couple low branches underneath the kink now and you repotted a little while ago. Your second flush is coming in strong, the tree has been responding well to what’s been thrown at it. A chop sets you back, sure. But you’ve had a lot of good growth since you pulled it from next to the fence last year, and if you are a fan of growing from container exclusively, a chop will do great things for trunk girth. Plus, a fresh start would allow you to make your own kink, just the way you like 😉.
<snip>

???
Chopping will STOP the development of trunk girth. It will stop it dead in its tracks. The caliper of the trunk will begin to increase once the new branches have grown enough to be supporting more leaf surface area than what was removed by the chop. This may take years. It all depends on when the chop is done. But it is erroneous to believe that a trunk chop helps increase trunk diameter in any way.

What increases trunk diameter is allow the tree to grow. The more leaf surface area supported by a trunk, the more rapidly the diameter of the trunk will increase. In species that back bud easily on older wood, the quickest way to develop trunk diameter is to allow the tree to grow unchecked until the desired trunk diameter is achieved. Trunk chopping slows the development of caliper of the trunk.

Only when a species is reluctant to back bud on old wood is doing a "trunk chop" on a young tree important. In which case, before the trunk reaches the age at which it will no longer back bud, the trunk is chopped to encourage low branches to form. These low branches are maintained (by regular pruning) to keep them from becoming long and leggy. As these branches will not back bud either as they get beyond the critical age. This is when trunk chopping is necessary on a young tree. But note, it slows the development of trunk caliper.

Practical considerations. Sometimes allowing a tree to become 2 or 3 meters tall, 6 to 10 feet tall, in order to increase the caliper or trunk diameter, is simply too difficult to handle. It is leaf surface area supported by a trunk that increases trunk diameter. The trunk can be chopped, to force low branches. The trunk will stop increasing in caliper the minute it is chopped. These low branches can be allowed to extend, perhaps pruned some to increase ramification, and at some point this ramified "bush" will support as much leaf surface area as allowing the trunk to grow unpruned. Once the leaf surface area exceeds the surface are at the time the chop was made, only then will the trunk again begin increasing in caliper.

So unchecked growth is the rapid way to increase trunk caliper. Trunk chopping will halt the increase in trunk caliper, until the new branches support MORE leaf surface area than the previous unchecked growth trunk.

Make sense? Your comments about oak before the "chop" comments are good, on the mark. So you do understand the basics of oak.

Now the question is, do oaks back bud reliably on old wood? I believe the answer for the northern red oak in this thread, the answer is "yes", they do back bud. Therefore chopping the trunk now, at this point would work against the goal of increasing the diameter of the trunk.

When the trunk reaches more than 75% of the desired diameter, it will become time to consider the trunk chop.

The "calculus" changes, when increasing the trunk diameter is not the most important task at hand. But generally, the single trait that separates "sticks in pots" from "real bonsai" is the caliper of the trunk compared to the size of the tree. Trunk caliper is key to developing a bonsai.
 

Potawatomi13

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Perhaps "in general" concerning trunk size. However if you were to consult Michael Hagedorn there are many REAL Bonsai with slender trunks and are not Literati;). Consider opposite extreme of way over fat unnatural and UN real "sumo" trunks some favor?
 

Orion_metalhead

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Right now the tree is going to grow out for a year or two and get strong. I am not touching the roots again next year so maby a year later I can do some damage.. eventually I will need to deal with the kink... its tough.. if I chop now, it will take years to get to the point of actively growing a lot of girth again, but if I wait, it will take equally long to heal the scar...
 
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