Question about U.S. Kishu Shimpaku history

[IABonsai]

So I know a lot if not most of the older Kishu you find in the states and most places outside of Japan are grafted. The ones in the US being grafted to San Jose and Prostrada. But what is the reasoning for that? Is that just how most of them got brought into the US? Is it because of how recently they have been brought to the US?
And why is it a thing more so with Kishu than Itoigawa?

thanks!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

People are growing shimpaku from cuttings as well. But it's hard to find a 200 year old cutting, or import a 200 year old shimpaku without it dying.
So it's easier to find a 200 year old rocky mountain juniper in the rocky mountains and graft shimpaku on it.

Kishu and itoigawa are popular because of their foliage, nothing more. I think one of those is also less susceptible to spider mites, but it's one of the easiest pests to treat.
If someone would find a RMJ or whatever kind of juniper with the same foliar habits, it would be equally popular within a decade.

 

[IABonsai]

People are growing shimpaku from cuttings as well. But it's hard to find a 200 year old cutting, or import a 200 year old shimpaku without it dying.
So it's easier to find a 200 year old rocky mountain juniper in the rocky mountains and graft shimpaku on it.

Kishu and itoigawa are popular because of their foliage, nothing more. I think one of those is also less susceptible to spider mites, but it's one of the easiest pests to treat.
If someone would find a RMJ or whatever kind of juniper with the same foliar habits, it would be equally popular within a decade.

Right but I'm mostly asking why it seems to be more of a thing with Kishu in the U.S. than Itoigawa. Is this just primarily influenced by people like Ishii?

 

[bwaynef]

SJ grows a trunk faster than Shimpaku.

 

[IABonsai]

SJ grows a trunk faster than Shimpaku.

Right, but I'm asking why Kishu specifically compared to Itoigawa. I don't think I've seen a single specimen Kishu that wasn't grafted in the US but I've seen quite a few Itoigawa.

I feel like there is some sort of import history that explains this.

 

[LanceMac10]

Much ado about Shimpaku…and Itoigawa and Kishu Juniper

These three popular regional varieties of Juniperus chinensis are discussed often, but rarely are their features compared. A few good articles exist that describe them, including Brent’s site, as …

nebaribonsai.wordpress.com

 

[IABonsai]

Much ado about Shimpaku…and Itoigawa and Kishu Juniper

These three popular regional varieties of Juniperus chinensis are discussed often, but rarely are their features compared. A few good articles exist that describe them, including Brent’s site, as …

nebaribonsai.wordpress.com

Yesssssss thank you! This is what I was looking for. The actual history behind the cultivars. Thank you sir.

So it seems like Kishu was basically used a ton for grafting because it was similar to normal shimpaku foilage but tighter. And the Itoigawa less so because of it's more unique appearance. Nothing brain shattering but definitely didn't put that together.

 

[bonhe]

So I know a lot if not most of the older Kishu you find in the states and most places outside of Japan are grafted. The ones in the US being grafted to San Jose and Prostrada. But what is the reasoning for that? Is that just how most of them got brought into the US? Is it because of how recently they have been brought to the US?
And why is it a thing more so with Kishu than Itoigawa?

thanks!

I asked my teacher about these a few years ago. My teacher has been in bonsai since 1959 and he used to have a bonsai nursery in Orange, CA. He told me that Kishu had more popularity than Itoigawa even in Japan due to its compacted foliage. Because of that, Itoigawa had higher value than Kishu.

Some Japanese imported Kishu and Itoigawa cutting into the US years ago and ratio of Kishu to Itoigawa obviously depended on the people's likeness.
It is rarely to see the old specimen raising from the cutting. This Kishu was about 60 years old and has been trained by my teacher since.


Thụ Thoại

 

[LanceMac10]

Yesssssss thank you! This is what I was looking for. The actual history behind the cultivars. Thank you sir.

So it seems like Kishu was basically used a ton for grafting because it was similar to normal shimpaku foilage but tighter. And the Itoigawa less so because of it's more unique appearance. Nothing brain shattering but definitely didn't put that together.

Shimpaku

The Shimpaku Juniper: Its Secret History (English Translation © WBFF 2003; Original Japanese Text and Photos © Kindai Shuppan Co. 2003) Editor’s Note: It is astonishing to realize that the Sh…

nebaribonsai.wordpress.com

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Right, but I'm asking why Kishu specifically compared to Itoigawa. I don't think I've seen a single specimen Kishu that wasn't grafted in the US but I've seen quite a few Itoigawa.

I feel like there is some sort of import history that explains this.

I don’t think this is necessarily the case broadly in the US. In fact, right now, it is more on-trend to graft RMJ with Itoigawa than Kishu. I see a good number of kishu bonsai and relatively few Itoigawa specimens. This one is an imported kishu.

 

[IABonsai]

Well now it's definitely more common because Itoigawa themselves are more sought after right now. But if that is in fact a non grafted Kishu that is probably one of the only ones I have seen here in the US. I think a couple of Suthin's aren't grafted but thats about it.

 

[Adair M]

I have a non-grafted, imported Itoigawa root over rock bonsai. The value of the thing is in the rock! Lol!!!

I actuLly prefer Kishu to Itoigawa. I like the color and growth habit better. But that ms just my preference. I’ve grafted Kishu on a Western trunk and a Utah trunk.

 

[IABonsai]

I have a non-grafted, imported Itoigawa root over rock bonsai. The value of the thing is in the rock! Lol!!!

I actuLly prefer Kishu to Itoigawa. I like the color and growth habit better. But that ms just my preference. I’ve grafted Kishu on a Western trunk and a Utah trunk.

I agree. I like the color of Itoigawas but I prefer the growth patterns of the Kishu. I've been looking for specimen of both really and just thought it was strange that almost all the Itoigawa I came across weren't grafted but almost all of the Kishu were. But I sort of get it now.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Well now it's definitely more common because Itoigawa themselves are more sought after right now. But if that is in fact a non grafted Kishu that is probably one of the only ones I have seen here in the US. I think a couple of Suthin's aren't grafted but thats about it.

It is in fact non-grafted.

 

[chansen]

Well now it's definitely more common because Itoigawa themselves are more sought after right now. But if that is in fact a non grafted Kishu that is probably one of the only ones I have seen here in the US. I think a couple of Suthin's aren't grafted but thats about it.

Telperion farms has lots and lots of non-grafted kishu and itoigawa junipers.

 

[IABonsai]

Telperion farms has lots and lots of non-grafted kishu and itoigawa junipers.

My god a Tolkien AND Bonsai fan?
Now I just want to give them my money.

But from what I can see at least from the internet they are mostly young trees. I was specifically talking about older larger specimen trees in the US. Obviously a lot of people are growing from cuttings now.

 

[NOZZLE HEAD]

People are growing shimpaku from cuttings as well. But it's hard to find a 200 year old cutting, or import a 200 year old shimpaku without it dying.
So it's easier to find a 200 year old rocky mountain juniper in the rocky mountains and graft shimpaku on it.

Kishu and itoigawa are popular because of their foliage, nothing more. I think one of those is also less susceptible to spider mites, but it's one of the easiest pests to treat.
If someone would find a RMJ or whatever kind of juniper with the same foliar habits, it would be equally popular within a decade.

Spider mites are one of the easiest pests to treat? PM me if you want to.

If on a scale of one to ten I would put spider mites closer to ten than five.

please tell me your secrets.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Spider mites are one of the easiest pests to treat? PM me if you want to.

If on a scale of one to ten I would put spider mites closer to ten than five.

please tell me your secrets.

The secret is outdoor growing and having winters, I guess. Over here they're hardly an issue, possibly due to natural predation but it's also very much possible that our climate plays a role.

Indoors, a single application of neem oil has always been sufficient. Pyrethrins don't always work, and neither do some other neonics. But neem oil has never been beaten in 12 years or so. Raising the humidity for a couple days after showering the plants seems to be pretty effective too.

Scales and wooly aphids are my personal nemesis. I can't seem to beat those, even with the use of systemics.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

The secret is outdoor growing and having winters, I guess. Over here they're hardly an issue, possibly due to natural predation but it's also very much possible that our climate plays a role.

Indoors, a single application of neem oil has always been sufficient. Pyrethrins don't always work, and neither do some other neonics. But neem oil has never been beaten in 12 years or so. Raising the humidity for a couple days after showering the plants seems to be pretty effective too.

Scales and wooly aphids are my personal nemesis. I can't seem to beat those, even with the use of systemics.

I think this is all region-dependent. Spider mites are definitely a challenge here. Easy to get and tough to eradicate.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

SJ grows a trunk faster than Shimpaku.

And I would go further to add - due to the commonality of SJ juniper in landscape all over SoCal, it is pretty easy to find SJ with a 4" or greater trunk caliper. In fact, it is not uncommon for people to dig them up and throw them in the trash when remodeling.

That said, grafting juniper requires a degree of skill and sophistication, to say nothing of time commitment. Perhaps it is just me, but the majority of shimpaku I have seen at shows and exhibitions are all on their own roots. The grafted ones tend to be the exception - and are typically large trees. I know Gary Ishii has been grafting shimpaku on California juniper for years, and he has stopped doing it. Too much work and too difficult to recoup the time investment because the market for large grafted trees is a small one.