Question on Technique...

[Rick Moquin]

Thanks guys, the downside to this discussion because of time, I wish I would have learned this 25 years ago

However, I have some 1.5 year old JBPs that I will be applying a similar but modified technique to come next spring.

 

[Attila Soos]

Now that I know youse guys are going to make thousands of these, perhaps I will just purchase them from you in the future!

As you know, this kind of contorted shohin shimpaku material is extremely hard to come by, at reasonable price. I'll keep you in mind.

 

[Chris Johnston]

As you know, this kind of contorted shohin shimpaku material is extremely hard to come by, at reasonable price. I'll keep you in mind.

Man now you are scaring me...wait...define "reasonable."

 

[Rick Moquin]

Based on the video and what Toshifumi describes, they are worth a bank also

Edit

 

[No it's not...]

This is probably the best thread I've read in a year on any of the forum I regularly visit! Awesome! Thanks for sharing!

 

[Chris Johnston]

Man, I miss those videos. Dial up completely and totally blows.

 

[Smoke]

I was expecting a drove of insults and a long speech from someone about how this forum is to share information and such.

But since you guys are so unbelievably nice, I can't resist but give away the "secret". After all, you can't abandon you friends, can you.

So, the key word in this technique is "bark stripping".
I am not going to do any drawing here, use your imagination. But the essence of it is that you take a young juniper (but not too young, the lower trunk should be about half an inch thick), and remove a wide strip of bark from the nebari and upwards (about 50% of the bark). You do this in an irregular corkscrew fashion, like an upward spiral. It has to look natural, so the coil that you create is at some place looser, at other places tighter. You don't want to make it like a candy-cane, but more natural.

What happens is that from the time you removed the strip of live bark, the trunk will start growing only along the live vein. As the vein thickens, the whole trunk will take on the shape of those coils that you see on those marvellous shohin and mame junipers in the Japanese catalogues.

In addition to this technique, you also wire the trunk, adding additional curves to it. But you do the wiring at the beginning, and strip the bark later, when the trunk has somewhat thickened already. You don't want to do the bark-stripping on very thin trunks and branches, they need to have some volume to work on.

I became aware of this technique about 6 months ago, after watching Linsey Farr's video series on the Internet. In one of the episodes (don't remember which one), a professional Japanese shohin bonsai grower was showing his little junipers, and kept mentioning over and over the technique of bark-stripping on the lower trunk of his junipers. I don't remember that he described the technique in detail, but that's when the lightbulb came on in my head. I've been playing with this idea for a long time, and I remember talking to Mas Ishii about his little contorted junipers, but he never really gave away his technique. Lindsey's video helped me to figure it out.

I have about 15 little shimpaku stock in my possession right now, so this winter I will apply this on all of them. Then they will all go back into the ground for 4 years worth of thickening.

There you have it,
I just gave away something that could have made my fortune. You guys can start sending me your checks at your earliest convenience.

In watching episode 10 of the series I drew no conclusions of that process as you described.
http://www.bonsaifarm.tv/content/view/107/51/

The first translated sentence says " I plant these as thin cuttings then wiring and grow the plants". There is no technique offered

Then he says he plants them into the ground to grow fatter.

Then he pots them up.
At this point he strips some bark. He never says what the bark stripping will do nor does he show in any way what you can expect by doing this.

He goes on to say that after the tree has reached thumb size in the trunk, he begins to train the branches.

If there is another video I am missing maybe a link could be provided.
There is a guy on another forum that has just tried this technique, I wonder if it will survive?

 

[Smoke]

OK everyone, I've found an example amongs bonsai pictures taken by me here in Los Angeles. This demonstrates how nature can do what we are trying to achieve with bark-stripping:

Here is a case where the live vein grows on a deadwood, creating the flat shape. This has nothing to do with the wind-shaped junipers that have no deadwood. This juniper has a lot of natural deadwood.

The flat shape was created by the live vein that kept growing on the deadwood.

We can create this artificially, by first creating the deadwood, and then letting the live vein grow on top of it. As you can see, this is a large tree. It will never happen on a shohin or mame-sized tree. This is what's so great about this technique: we can apply it on a miniature scale.

Got it?

Oh I got it. I have seen it, in the wild. I can tell you by looking at this bonsai exactly where it came from. I know exactlky where on the parent tree this came from.

Can anyone here tell by looking at this plant how it grew in nature. This is not a juniper tree/bush.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Al,

Is your post at Madbonsai Jim's technique?

Yes episode 10 is a little vague, as I mentioned I din't get it at first, there are several other smipits throughout the series that refer to what is being discussed. As I mentioned I didn't catch on to what was being demonstrated when first viwed. When viewing these translations it is what is not translated that is important, we must see with our minds vice our eyes and the sign language, not the translated sub-titles

The key to this technique is the tree is wired and the wire allowed to cut in (quite a bit I night add),this will cause swelling of the live vein. The wiring although may seem like it is applied haphazardly is not, the direction is done with a purpose. Once the live vein as been clearly established, the bark is removed between the coilin vein.

If time permits I will try and find where I have seen this outside of the videos, but what Attila is referring to I either seen it or read it in a reference or another. Having said that, even with the other references, I was never able to put 2 and 2 together until Attila explained it

 

[Smoke]

Al,


The key to this technique is the tree is wired and the wire allowed to cut in (quite a bit I night add),this will cause swelling of the live vein. The wiring although may seem like it is applied haphazardly is not, the direction is done with a purpose. Once the live vein as been clearly established, the bark is removed between the coilin vein.

I might ask how many of these small junipers you have actually held in your hands? Mow many have you actually seen up close and personal?

 

[Rick Moquin]

None! Now are you happy.

 

[BONSAI_OUTLAW]

None! Now are you happy.

LOL...probably not...

 

[Attila Soos]

Just to steer back this thread to its original subject:

Chris posted a small juniper, and posed a question: what kind of techniques were used on this tree, in order to achieve the contorted, and "coiled spring" look.

I concluded that it is a combination of wiring and bark-peeling.

I tried to describe the technique of bark-peeling, to the best of my knowledge. Rick had a valuable insight to it. Al insists that Jim Gremel's is the technique of his choice.

I am firmly convinced that bark peeling is an extremely valuable addition. I place so much faith in it that I am in the process of applying it on all my small junipers that I grow for shohin and mame size. So, I don't just talk about this, I am actually doing it on my trees. I expect some great results that will start showing after 2-3 growing seasons.

Some members here don't believe in bark-peeling. That's fine. They should stick to wiring, since bark peeling is not an easy technique.

Anybody disagrees so far?...

 

[Rick Moquin]

Well you know you have my vote. Folks who disagree are welcome to post tangible evidence.

 

[Chris Johnston]

I have heard valuable contributions from three members, all of whose opinions I value. I think they may all have merit, and I am interested in hearing about results in the future. My thoughts would be to try a bunch of trees and keep the survivors.

Thanks to you Attila, Rick, and Al for your contributions to the cause. Now go check my spruce thread.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Now go check my spruce thread.

Rebar, raffia, trunk/branch splitters and thick wire. You have Boon in your corner, that is who I would be hitting on. You are fortunate, I have no experts around here.

 

[Smoke]

None! Now are you happy.

NO, My question has nothing to do with trying to belittle anyone or anything of the sort. What it has to do with is the technique. If you have seen one in your hands you would be able to see it has nothing to do with peeling bark. The technique has to do with making a base on which to add bark peeling to. The bark peeling adds very little to the finished product except asthetics. Take a look at the picture of Chris' tree and the two I posted from Jim. Look closely at the lip of roll on each side of the deadwood. It is not significant. Maybe a 1/16 at best. I agree totally with Attila's thought on what it might do in theory, but what it does in reality is not much. The technique provides the exact same finished product whether peeled or unpeeled.

In the words of an esteemed collegue, this is hamburger and cheeseburger. One is plain and one is enhanced, but you still have a burger.

In these photo's below I have shot some close ups of the twists and loops in which was achieved by contorting whips at an early stage. The earlier the better. Earlier creates less stress and probably increases success. In the photo's you will see my tree has no shari what so ever. It is easy to see that the technique of whip bending was done to each and every branch thru creation so that even the jins would fit in with the style. That is far more important than the actual bark peeling.

My tree is at the point that if bark peeling were to be introduced, this would be the time. The trunk is at about fat 3/4 inch close to 7/8. If you look close at the trees that have been peeled after the coils are set, it is apparent that the peeling is one dimensionable, that is it is done to the areas tht can be reached easily and not ruin a tree by slipping with a knife trying to introduce a spiral shari all the way around a branch or trunk. If you look at Jim's tree closely you can see that the shari's follow the grain of the wood exactly. They do not spiral in between the wire marks or anything of the sort. It is just to dangerous to be trying to change the flow of sap in a tree that has undergone this kind of treatment. That is why I am useing a combination of Jims technique and Mas Ishii's technique and introducing the shari at the beginning. That way I will have shari on the inside of my loops and over the top on some.

 

[Anonymous User]

Al, do you have a picture of one of your trees that has undergone this technique in the past? I am interested in seeing the long term results of the combination of techniques.



Will

 

[Chris Johnston]

Fantastic photographs, Al! Thanks for keeping up with this thread. More light and less heat makes a very illuminating thread!

 

[redroo]

I know, you have the right to demand that I share with the world everything I know...


This is a truly fascinating technique, and I have found out about it by accident, not so long ago.

I can tell you that, although wiring young whips is the technique that comes first to mind, the one I am talking about can be done even on 1-inch trunks, creating coils so tight that wiring would be impossible.

This technique is worth a lot of money, so I will let you guys hold your breaths for a while...just for my pleasure.

I too am very interested in this nejikan process, but I have to say that I smart somewhat at your mention of value and money....and here's me thinking that we few bonsai folk share our knowledge with the few that might be interested. So come on mate, do us a favour and just feel free, go ahead and let us all know how it's done.

Respectfully,
Nigel