Question

[Smoke]

So are you going to share?

I always beta test everything before I share anything. I tested humic acid for five years before I extolled its virtues. Some still think it to be snake oil but if I do not get a bounce or some observable reason to continue to do something I discontinue its use and move to new experiments. At this time I can tell you that definately I see no bounce from HB 101, Superthrive, or charcoal as an additive to a soil mix.

I can tell you that these things do give me a large and observable bounce, humic acid, large particle size for soil, akadama for hot locations, grow stones for conifers, not so much for diciduous, syphon feeders and colanders.

Last year this fertilizer I used was the best I have ever seen as far as growth. While my wife had cancer I had been using the syphon feeder and was not pruning. I had to disconnect the feeder and stop feeding because the growth was so large. Whats nice about the feeder is that small dose can be mixed and large dose can be mixed. Have trees in growth stage, pour the coal to them, have trees in more refinement stage then mix a dilute amount and feed more sparingly. I feel that after the big spill finding this fertlizer will be hard to do for a major portion of the country, so that will be the bad part. Fo me its the bomb right now.

http://www.growmore.com/products/type/water-soluble-fertilizer.html

I am using the triple 20 blend and mixing it 10 times the strength in my syphon mixer for spring everyday.. After summer I mix the normal rate for a gallon and let the injector apply it at 16 times dilution, but everyday. This is a water soluable fertilizer that completely dissolves in cold water. It is in a salt form and derived from blood meal. It makes a dark brown water and then I add one ounce of 20 percent humic acid per five gallons of water which is the holding tank for the injector. I can water my collection of around 75 trees three times on the five gallons of fertlizer before I need to mix anothe batch. It takes me about 2 minutes to mix five gallons for three more days and so on. This is a injector food made specifically for the commercial trade in the food industry as well as commercial growers of blooming flower plants for the flower trade. You will not find it at the local nursery or big box store as many people have never seen cold water soluable fertlizer. You local hydroponic store may surprise you...you never know! There is a pansy grower here in fresno that has used thiss tuff ford ecades and injects for the commercial trade. He has told me that this is an old company and many nurseries across the USA use this for watering their nurseries but do not sell it. Go figure!

 

[edprocoat]

You don't need to say anything to satisfy me. I was just offering my input. I won't make that mistake again.

This sounds like a reaction I would get from my sister she always thinks everyone is picking on her, lol. Don I was only offering my input as well and did not mean to hurt your feelings.

ed

 

[Smoke]

Anybody remember Tasters Choice coffee? It was freeze dried into crystals, and this fertlizer looks exactly like that. Instead of looking dry though, this looks like it is wet, except its not.

 

[sorce]

Anybody remember Tasters Choice coffee? It was freeze dried into crystals, and this fertlizer looks exactly like that. Instead of looking dry though, this looks like it is wet, except its not.

Smoke,

Do you email them to purchase?
You find all the best stuff!

Sorce

 

[Don Blackmond]

This sounds like a reaction I would get from my sister she always thinks everyone is picking on her, lol. Don I was only offering my input as well and did not mean to hurt your feelings.

ed

Ed you should stop being such an ass and you won't get reactions like that.

 

[Anthony]

Compost ages to Humus and the decay continues to metal oxides etc.
So oil meal / oil cakes, compost to fertiliser cakes and then onto Humus ................
I don't know if you need to add anything else, since Rapeseed is rated at 6/7 N 2 P 2 K and has micro nutrients, so as far as Bonsai in Bonsai pots [ development of branchlets, or "finished " ] are concerned, shouldn't that be enough ?

Additionally if your core was started as inorganic, with feedings of composted material, there will be organic material in the heart of the core.
Plus as you add the repotted material of inorganic material and then the composted cakes, the organic material will filter down through the mix again.
Unless, you are doing the inorganic with just Hydroponics ?????

Also if you use an organic in your mix with inorganics, would the addition of complete artificial fertilisers like Miracle Gro, really change anything ?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[wireme]

Compost ages to Humus and the decay continues to metal oxides etc.
So oil meal / oil cakes, compost to fertiliser cakes and then onto Humus ................
I don't know if you need to add anything else, since Rapeseed is rated at 6/7 N 2 P 2 K and has micro nutrients, so as far as Bonsai in Bonsai pots [ development of branchlets, or "finished " ] are concerned, shouldn't that be enough ?

Additionally if your core was started as inorganic, with feedings of composted material, there will be organic material in the heart of the core.
Plus as you add the repotted material of inorganic material and then the composted cakes, the organic material will filter down through the mix again.
Unless, you are doing the inorganic with just Hydroponics ?????

Also if you use an organic in your mix with inorganics, would the addition of complete artificial fertilisers like Miracle Gro, really change anything ?
Good Day
Anthony

Yes I think so in colder climates. Organics converted to available forms by microbes, slows down in cold weather no?
I figure at that point they don't need it so much anyways, I only use organic ferts, damn hippies eh?

 

[sikadelic]

I used organics in my mix last year because it was hotter than 40 hells in Beaufort and I didn't want my soil drying out while I was at work. I still had to water 2x per day even with the pine bark mixed in. This year I plan to dial the amount down but will still use it. You can't beat the CEC values.

 

[ianb]

[QUOTE="Bonsai Nut, post: 2415 Just don't get them mixed up with your regular tea bags!

That would really ruin the start of a day !

ed[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I know, you wouldn't be able to tell by the colour either. Hopefully the smell would raise a flag.

 

[ianb]

B-Nut when using tea bags ever wonder how much of the nutrients is not making it through the filter ? I have no idea how it would be checked but it seems it would have to reduce by an appreciable amount the nutrients that could pass through the filter of the tea bag.

ed

I didn't really notice any difference in growth rates with tea bags versus plain dumping the fert on the soil (admittedly I only did it last year). But when making up the bags dust can still get through.

 

[Ron Dennis]

What is the standard advice for growing out a tree ? I always hear plant it in the ground .... lol if organics were no good then why does this work? How does a tree get to be 100 feet tall in nature if organics is no good. Now if you are talking about fine fibrous roots then non organic particles force the roots to grow this way. To get good growth with a medium for a tree or situation that needs to be more wet - long work days in a hot area or a tree like a Bald Cypress or a Ficus that enjoy more moisture - then you need some organics. BTW if this is supposed to be your choice then why are you asking us, perhaps you realize that in a four month course to choose your own soil and defend your choices would be impossible in that time frame unless your opinions were those culled from another. lol It seems like a poorly thought out course plan ...

ed

Ed, this course is not poorly thought out at all. I wish I had this opportunity four years ago when I started on this journey. If truth be known, I signed up for this study to "unlearn" some things I was doing wrong and am so glad I did. As to my own opinion, I have it; however, I hope I never become so cocky in my thinking to be unable to learn from others. There are many on B'nut that I admire and read their comments knowing I will benefit from their experience. It was to benefit from their experiences I posted the original post. I appreciate your taking the time to comment and give me your input.

 

[0soyoung]

Ed you should stop being such an ass and you won't get reactions like that.

You could ignore Ed (and anybody else that continually ruins your day) by having BNut2.0 do it for you. Hover your cursor over your user name (upper right of this page), choose 'People you ignore'. Type Ed, for example, and you'll get a drop down list of users whose name starts with Ed - pick him and VOILA none of Ed's posts will be visible anymore!

 

[edprocoat]

Ed you should stop being such an ass and you won't get reactions like that.

Don, perhaps you forgot that you quoted my post and then categorically corrected me with your opinions, like a hit piece. Let me post your reply to refresh your memory.

edprocoat said: ↑
What is the standard advice for growing out a tree ? I always hear plant it in the ground .... lol if organics were no good then why does this work? How does a tree get to be 100 feet tall in nature if organics is no good. Now if you are talking about fine fibrous roots then non organic particles force the roots to grow this way. To get good growth with a medium for a tree or situation that needs to be more wet - long work days in a hot area or a tree like a Bald Cypress or a Ficus that enjoy more moisture - then you need some organics. BTW if this is supposed to be your choice then why are you asking us, perhaps you realize that in a four month course to choose your own soil and defend your choices would be impossible in that time frame unless your opinions were those culled from another. lol It seems like a poorly thought out course plan ...

ed
Click to expand...
1. People put trees in the ground to increase growth rates, not because the soil is better.
2. Organic material in the ground is fertilizer. If you fertilize potted trees then you don't need organics in your soil.
3. People use organics in bonsai soil because someone told them to do it, not because of necessity.
4. Organics do hold more moisture and will keep soil moist longer, but they are not necessary if you water properly.
5. Organics decompose and can cause root issues. Trees in the ground can avoid these issues; trees in pot cannot.
6. Inorganic medium does not force a fine fibrous root system. Fine, fibrous feeder roots form naturally when conditions are proper. Long, thick roots form out of necessity; need for stability, searching for nutrients, etc.

Your "input" from line 3. really sounded like you were trying to be an ass, like you just accused me of. When I started Bonsai there were no inorganic mixes, nobody "told" me to use organics there just was no alternative. And yes my friend, people do put trees in the ground to increase growth rates, that was my point. I assume from your replies you thought your "input" had to belittle me to be accepted or you just regularly use such bully tactics in your speech ?

ed

 

[edprocoat]

Ed, this course is not poorly thought out at all. I wish I had this opportunity four years ago when I started on this journey. If truth be known, I signed up for this study to "unlearn" some things I was doing wrong and am so glad I did. As to my own opinion, I have it; however, I hope I never become so cocky in my thinking to be unable to learn from others. There are many on B'nut that I admire and read their comments knowing I will benefit from their experience. It was to benefit from their experiences I posted the original post. I appreciate your taking the time to comment and give me your input.

Thank you Ron, maybe I looked at the concept wrongly ? I would assume to be able to "defend" your choices you would have to be able to provide proofs of your choices and not just the words of another who gave you advice. So when I said it seemed poorly thought out that was my point. To have made a definitive choice and be able to defend that choice in a 4 month period you have no option but to agree with someone, you could easily have agreed with the Oil Dry crowd, or the Turface crowd, or the Caladama crowd blindly taking whomever you decided to trust at their word and use their arguments to "defend" your choice. To "defend" it from provable data you would have to have actually used the materials yourself in a controlled lot and your defense would be your actual produce during a set time period where you could definitively state that "X" grew better in mix "B" That would give you a more believable defense than saying everybody on Bonsai-Nut says .....

ed

 

[Don Blackmond]

Your "input" from line 3. really sounded like you were trying to be an ass, like you just accused me of. I assume from your replies you thought your "input" had to belittle me to be accepted or you just regularly use such bully tactics in your speech ?

ed

Well I'm sorry you feel that way. You completely misunderstood my post. I wasn't belittling or bullying you at all.
I hope you recognize the irony in post #42.....

 

[edprocoat]

Well I'm sorry you feel that way. You completely misunderstood my post. I wasn't belittling or bullying you at all.
I hope you recognize the irony in post #42.....

Ok then forgive me please ! I took it as an attack as I was quoted. For post #4 that is true if you have the day to spend watering. To me this is a hobby, I do not sell or show trees, I am a contractor and usually leave for work at 6-7 am and do not return till after 9 pm, even earlier and later when I have a greater distance to drive so I do not have the time to water say mid-day when there is 90 degree weather and a stiff 15 mph breeze. Pine bark composted mixed in with lava chips works well for me.

ed

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

...maybe I looked at the concept wrongly ? ...
ed

You did. People were only asked in the OP if they use organic or inorganic soil, what, and why.

 

[Don Blackmond]

Ok then forgive me please ! I took it as an attack as I was quoted. For post #4 that is true if you have the day to spend watering. To me this is a hobby, I do not sell or show trees, I am a contractor and usually leave for work at 6-7 am and do not return till after 9 pm, even earlier and later when I have a greater distance to drive so I do not have the time to water say mid-day when there is 90 degree weather and a stiff 15 mph breeze. Pine bark composted mixed in with lava chips works well for me.

ed

Its all okay, Ed.
Have you investigated an irrigation system? An automatic watering or misting system works wonders in hot, dry climates. They aren't very expensive, especially considering what they do and the value of what they protect.
My personal experience is that watering more often (a water/dry/water/dry/water/dry cycle) is better than keeping roots wet. Minimizing or avoiding organic medium allows me to water as much as I want without worrying about swampiness and stagnation.

 

[ColinFraser]

B-Nut when using tea bags ever wonder how much of the nutrients is not making it through the filter ? I have no idea how it would be checked but it seems it would have to reduce by an appreciable amount the nutrients that could pass through the filter of the tea bag.
ed

Please take this in the playful tone that I'm intending - isn't this question kind of like wondering how much tea flavor you are missing out on by using a tea bag? I mean, the part that matters dissolves in the water, which passes right through the bag.

Similarly, the root hairs on feeding roots are only one cell in diameter, and as far as I know, can only take up nutrients when dissolved in the water they are taking up. Therefore, only soluble stuff is of any use to the tree, and soluble stuff has no problem going right through a tea bag.

If there is organic matter in the bag that needs to be broken down to be useful to the tree, then the issue would be whether or not bacteria and/or fungal hyphae could get in. If fine dust can get out, then we can probably assume this is a non-issue. Interesting stuff; I hope you don't mind my jumping in, as I know the question was directed elsewhere.

 

[edprocoat]

Its all okay, Ed.
Have you investigated an irrigation system? An automatic watering or misting system works wonders in hot, dry climates. They aren't very expensive, especially considering what they do and the value of what they protect.
My personal experience is that watering more often (a water/dry/water/dry/water/dry cycle) is better than keeping roots wet. Minimizing or avoiding organic medium allows me to water as much as I want without worrying about swampiness and stagnation.

Yea I actually had two types a drip system and a mist system. Both required me to route little plastic hoses all around my plants and then remove them when I wanted to work on them or had to move to a jobsite for 2 to 6 weeks. Very impractical, ugly and a pain in the ass. Even when I wanted to just tweak some wire or spray some pesticide I would have to unhook the system from my pot do whatever, hook it up again, make sure it worked again.... These things are really made to be set up and left alone, plus having to rethink the whole setup when we get the week or so of rain.

ed