Questioning and Understanding Conventional Wisdom

[sorce]

I think major branch bending needs to be talked about considerably more often. It is a subject I know nearly nothing about after being in this forum for close to a year? Maybe half a year?

I can count the heavy benders on one root take!

Sorce

 

[A Random User]

Thanks everyone for the replies...
Even though, this discussion is based somewhat on the principals of doing heavier bending... the theory would apply and should be a consideration with a bend of any degree. If one bends a branch and has loss... what I am trying to discuss would most likely be the culprit why... regardless of what type of material one is working with. Whether juniper or not.

 

[wireme]

I would not have thought that a few days of watering more or less would affect the moisture content of heartwood, isn't it the sapwood transporting water? You're saying you've noticed that it does?

 

[A Random User]

Wanted to bring up another point I did not mention with the previous proposals...

That being the fact that it is possible to have loss even with a break occurring along the grain, and with the cambium layer not separating from the heartwood... If one pushes a branch to such an extreme bend, the layers of the cambium and heartwood are going to tear and be stretched along the grain. If this tear is so great, it is possible that one can cause them to rip completely causing separation...

So, to avoid this... what is often suggested is that one does a bend of this magnitude in stages... So, one does half or three quarters of the bend they wish to make. Let, the area heal for a period if time... months, even a year... does more bending, let recover, and so on.

 

[A Random User]

I would not have thought that a few days of watering more or less would affect the moisture content of heartwood, isn't it the sapwood transporting water? You're saying you've noticed that it does?

This is a good point...

I was hoping that some of the other members here at the Nut, would chime in with their experiences and what they see happening in their varying regions on the subject... Sadly, it does not seem to be happening... I think it would help to create a better picture, and help us all learn.

Until then, all I can do is explain what I see happening in my climate, which is obviously very wet and very sunny...

So, from my views what I see happening is that the heartwood, or pith is actually the bones of the branch or trunk... the structure. It has almost no moisture to begin with... in fact, I see the moisture actually being transfered from the cambium layer to the heartwood due to the direct contact of the two. The cambium layer is what is actually creating the heartwood. As a tree grows, it adds layer upon layer to the heartwood to build it's structure. So, at this point where the two meet there is actually a transitioning point where the section is no longer cambium, and not yet heartwood. It is a mixture of the two, with the intention of becoming heartwood.

Often if one was to deliberately break a branch on purpose, one will find that when they do, and pull back the cambium layer, to expose the heartwood, you will actually find water sitting on the surface of the top of the heartwood. If one creates a shari or Jin you will sometimes find this as well.

It is my view that a good majority of the tree or plants resources is being concentrated here... to assist in this process of adding structure to support a bigger tree. This is why when one looks at trees or plants in nature often one will find that in regions where water is very limited, one will find trees or plants smaller in stature. Often it will take centuries for trees in this type if region to grow to any height... where in a region such as mine, one might find a tree of the same height occurring in a matter of years, even months. Scientists, can even look at tree rings and determine from them years with lots if rain and years with not, depending on their rings and how big they are.

So, in conclusion... what I am saying is that Yes, I do think that even a few days of no water effects this area tremendously...
In fact, I think it probably the most vulnerable part of the tree... I am not a Scientist, but I would say that from my observations, that when a tree pulls up moisture from the roots, it does so in the area, right along the base of the heartwood. So, this in essence would be the first place effected by a lack of any water.

 

[GrimLore]

I am not a Scientist, but I would say that from my observations, that when a tree pulls up moisture from the roots, it does so in the area, right along the base of the heartwood. So, this in essence would be the first place effected by a lack of any water.

This past season I found that to be true with my first shot at Serissa up here. They are less picky then I have been told but demand damp not wet soil. If I just water around the growing containers and not the center they drop leaf as if they are not getting water. When my deciduous were alive for years I never noticed but they were watered quite differently so they had full coverage. I also noticed a few years back the Azalea that required being indoors and very controlled required that direct against the base watering as well. Never really thought about it much until reading this honest!

Grimmy

 

[A Random User]

I am just hashing this this whole concept as I go along... so bare with me!

So, then if we say a heartwood, or pith that is very strong, yet is very fragile in so far as it flexibility. It is the structure, and supplies no other purpose, it does not play a role in the tree's natural cycle of water/nutrients. Therefore, it can be structurally bent and altered. That as long as it still retains a break along the grain and this break does not transfer to the cabium layer. The chances of no loss are quite high. The condition this area is in is going to greatly increase one's odds... the wetter this portion is, the more likely it is going to tear and not break, which is the less severe of the two.

We then say that the cambium layer is very soft, yet very strong when it comes to flexibility. It is then able to with stand stretching, as long as this stretching is not to great, causing a tear or break in the layer. It is the area that carries and supplies the tree's water and nutrients. It does so, in the area closest to the heartwood or pith. One can damage the exterior of the cambium, and as long as the damage does not penetrate to deep, the wound is easily healed.

The weakest point between the two is going to be obviously where the two combine and join... where a layer of soft/flexible tissue meets a layer of hard/not flexible wood.

Now, if this is the area of weakest point, and if any fail is to occur resulting in the form of loss, while doing a bend. It will be the result of the friction between the two, being to severe.

What then might cause the friction being to severe?

The bend being to great, adding to to much energy in the form of friction.

The sudden change in direction... as a result of the bend in the more fragile area, the heartwood, giving way. The bend pulling in one direction, and the failure in the form of the break, allowing for the sudden return in the opposite direction. Then there is the bending by the artist in one direction, and the changing of one's mind in the other.

So, then the water theory I believe does really play a pivotal role in this failure...
if one is to believe that there is a decent amount of water going through this area.

The question then would be what would be the effects of the water? Would they have a lubricating property... or would it's storage in the process of the bend actually cause a breakage? Seeing that it's mass and volume would have to be distributed somewhere?

It would be interesting to know!
I feel if we understand the parameters of what is actually occurring, it would be of great use in how we succeed or fail at manipulating our art.

 

[sorce]

Root rake. Stupid phone !

I think we should find something(crap material) to bend at different "wetnesses" and cut em open for a look see.

They say wire in dormancy.
My best success has come in active growing season.

I think the fact that these trees are in Florida make a big difference. We are talking about months of more energy. Before and after the fact.
This plays a role.

Maybe a little bend in the wrong direction could help "loosen stuff up" before going the right way.

My question .

When you bend up down , and left right, do you make 2 pre splits, in opposing directions? Or just favor one?

Sorce

 

[GrimLore]

What then might cause the friction being to severe?

The bend being to great, adding to to much energy in the form of friction.

I am pretty certain at that point I would be using Trunk splitters to do the bend. Now I know this opens a can of worms so to speak but if I read all of that correctly that is where I would be

Grimmy

 

[A Random User]

Root rake. Stupid phone !

I think we should find something(crap material) to bend at different "wetnesses" and cut em open for a look see.

They say wire in dormancy.
My best success has come in active growing season.

I think the fact that these trees are in Florida make a big difference. We are talking about months of more energy. Before and after the fact.
This plays a role.

Maybe a little bend in the wrong direction could help "loosen stuff up" before going the right way.

My question .

When you bend up down , and left right, do you make 2 pre splits, in opposing directions? Or just favor one?

Sorce

You bring up a good point... but not necessarily in the area of the breakage and the cause.

See, one of the things I have noticed is that when one does a bend. One obviously, now has created a point if obstruction.. a kink in a hose if you will. Where flow of water/nutrients is going to be hindered...

How, then does this effect the tree?

If one has a tree that has alot of this energy flowing in the form of water/nutrients... going from a strong flow to all of a sudden a trickle is going to have drastic consequences...

So, I see where the argument could be made, where one would want to do this type of work when the tree's natural cycle is at it's slowest point... when the transfer of water and nutrients is not so strong along the area being bent...

On the flip side of this... if the argument I am making would happen to be the case, one would then notice that the tree's lack of energy being transfered, would then greatly effect the condition in which the heartwood and it's state of wet, or dry are in... which I am arguing effects whether one is more likely, or not to have breakage causing loss. It also would then take onto account of whether or not the water/nutrients that are flowing at the connection, between the heartwood and the cambium layer acts as a type of lubricant or a hinder in the process.

So, the tree that is in season, being bent, is going to suffer more as a result of the flow being hindered, the tree out if season is going to suffer more from breakage of the heartwood and it's impact.

How can we counter balance this situation with the after care we provide?

With a tree in season, one would then naturally want to try and slow the tree's overall growth down, to put it in a semi - hibernation state. How, can we do this? What is the most predominate force in this equation? The Sun... right? It not only helps to increase the photosynthesis process, pulling up moisture through the area bent, but also greatly decreases the amount of water in the soil, that the tree needs to bring up...

So, we can counterbalance this by limiting the amount if sun the tree receives, which reduces the amount of energy the tree wants to bring through the effected area. We can also, increase the amount of watering we do, so the tree does not have to search for water, which is what one normally wants in bonsai, to help establish finer roots, etc. Lastly, one needs to also consider elements such as wind, seeing they help to dry the soil out as well.

How, does one counter balance a tree out if season? This I am not sure one could do... if one has an area that has kink, where the flow of water/nutrients is hindered, how then does one increase the flow? And does it matter? It does if one is taking the state of the heartwood into consideration and the damage a break from it's condition might do. I am not sure how one can increase the amount of water the tree is going to take up, if there is no leaves?

 

[A Random User]

I am pretty certain at that point I would be using Trunk splitters to do the bend. Now I know this opens a can of worms so to speak but if I read all of that correctly that is where I would be

Grimmy

This is why I brought up the subject of the procedure, it is definitely a process one can do to help minimalize a more catastrophic out come of complete loss altogether!

 

[GrimLore]

This is why I brought up the subject of the procedure, it is definitely a process one can do to help minimalize a more catastrophic out come of complete loss altogether!

I did not see it being brought up and figured it would be ok to bump this to further detail the how and why aspects... I now return your thread

Grimmy

 

[Vance Wood]

Very much of the time information that is specious is floated around as being sacred and graven in stone. Therefore everybody follows it unquestioningly and teaches the same misinformation. Personally I learned the simple process from Yoshimura'a book that Junipers can be dealt with any time of the year except dead winter.

 

[Vance Wood]

I first discovered this with my work on Mugo Pines. Everything I was taught and had read about Two Needle Pines was wrong when it came to Mugo Pines. And now as I understand many of the professional teachers are making a difference between single and double flush Pines. Go figure. I have been pointing this out for more than twenty years to criticism of many, even important members of the bonsai community.

My wife and I took a drive of the East Coast and of course you have to go to Kitty Hawk aka Kill Devil Hills and see where the Wright brothers launched the frist powered heavier than air machineaka air plane. I also picked uo the book. In my reading of this story it was interesting to note that at first, the brothers poured over all existing litterature on humane flight that had been written. These were authored by scientists who were trying to concure this problem and were festooned with volimns of statistics, charts, and graphs, that in the end proved to be erronioius. The had to prove every detail personally. I guess my point is this: Always pay attention to what the majority of people say and do but don't be afraid to push the envelope and prove them wrong.

 

[M. Frary]

Very much of the time information that is specious is floated around as being sacred and graven in stone. Therefore everybody follows it unquestioningly and teaches the same misinformation. Personally I learned the simple process from Yoshimura'a book that Junipers can be dealt with any time of the year except dead winter.

Yep,when they are actively growing and healthy junipers can take a lot.

 

[GrimLore]

Yep,when they are actively growing and healthy junipers can take a lot.

That is a very true BUT one must realize that getting to that point may take two full seasons! Just saying DO NOT knock the hell out of a juniper when you bring it home from the Nursery - wait, let it grow, understand it for a minimum of one full season. Once established they are far more forgiving then any Deciduous I have ever owned given the correct care and TIME.

Grimmy