Questions with Scots Pine "Jeremy"

[Adair M]

Yes, they do. Due to popular demand.

The attraction is obviously the pretty tufts of short needles.

Meanwhile, the JBP that haven't been worked, are ignored.

Much as you advocate for Mugo, I have advocated for JBP for this area. So, I teach classes, 3 times a year, at the Bonsai store on how to grow JBP.

I have been doing this for 3 years, and I've been able to educate several dozen. I'm constantly battling the "but that's not in John Naka's books" crowd. (Decandling isn't in there.)

Warren Hill used to teach people to decandle in October! I've seen many messed up trees people have brought in because of that.

No one taught proper needle pulling technique and timing, until I started teaching it 3 years ago. Around here, that is.

So... Because of all of that, there wasn't a market for JBP here. The local bonsai shop would get the JWP imported trees from Brussels, and sell them. The ones grafted on JBP stock.

His clientele is primarily from Atlanta. So, they'd buy them, take them to Atlanta, and they'd cook and die. Atlanta, due to the air pollution has hotter temperatures than we do, so while the JWP do fine here, they don't do do well there. I'm more up in the mountains.

 

[Vance Wood]

Doing what you have been doing with JBP you should understand what I have been going through with the Mugo. I still think you can grow Mugos in your area. Maybe not Atlanta but certainly where you are. If you can grow JWP the Mugo should not be a problem.

 

[Adair M]

Vance, you're right, I probably can. But to be honest, I'm trying to limit the species I work with.

And, I'm really getting picky on what trees to have in my collection. I have about 8 trees I keep in California. And about two dozen here at home. The only reason I have that many at home is half of those are shohin, and you need a lot of shohin to choose from to make a decent display.

If it weren't for the shohin, I'd only have about a dozen trees.

So, I'll let you have the good Mugos!

 

[Dav4]

I lived in MA for over 40 years and can say with certainty that they are used frequently in the landscape there. I, myself, had 3-4 dwarf cultivars plus the species growing in my yard there. Since moving to GA, I've seen less then 5 mugo planted in the landscape in the Metro Atlanta, and these were small and unhealthy. You can periodically find them for sale at the big box stores...you just don't see them thriving in the landscape here.

By the way, there are several nice old JWP bonsai at the Smith Gilbert Gardens bonsai collection in Kennesaw Ga. They can grow here with appropriate care. I suppose mugo pine might survive here with the appropriate care, but I'm with Adair. I watched 2 collected lodgepole pine and one Ponderosa languish and die within 4 years of moving here...haven't lost a JBP or JRP yet. If I can get JRP and JBP to grow well with no additional effort other then meeting the typical horticultural needs, why would I want a mugo that requires jumping through hoops to survive down here?

 

[Adair M]

In Atlanta, azalea thrive. Why grow Mugo in the landscape when you can have azalea?

 

[Vance Wood]

What?????? All that being said the original subject of this post was about a Scots Pine.

 

[Adair M]

Amazing how conversations evolve!

 

[Dalmat]

So you JBP lovers,please take an effort and compare any variation of USDA zone maps and compare Munich Germany (that is were
Walter Pall lives) and Atlanta, Ga.
And then cut that BS about mugo can't be grown there and it needs super extra attention.
Skip that political correctness and say I don't like mugo for bonsai or I am incapable of doing so ( Boon didn't show me how to)
To stay on the thread same goes for Scott pine.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Yes, we all live in different climates. Some plants will grow good in one place and not so good in the other. Even my neighbor can't keep any bonsai alive... The more difficult it is for the plant to grow in your area, the more you have to adjust your actions and care for it. If you want that "demanding" plant to grow you have to invest in it. How much do you want to do for it? That is the question. For me its simple. You grow the species you like and you are able to give the best care.
Back on topic. For styling i think we wait for the video.
Here in our area typically we don't repot trees in summer. We don't see mugo or sylvestris sputter in spring when we repot the correct way and when buds are swelling. And i don't say it doesn't work for your climate, it could be it is best to do it in summer in your climate. It could be that our summer is to short or the winter is to early...

 

[Dav4]

So you JBP lovers,please take an effort and compare any variation of USDA zone maps and compare Munich Germany (that is were
Walter Pall lives) and Atlanta, Ga.
And then cut that BS about mugo can't be grown there and it needs super extra attention.
Skip that political correctness and say I don't like mugo for bonsai or I am incapable of doing so ( Boon didn't show me how to)
To stay on the thread same goes for Scott pine.

Seriously?? Have you ever spent any significant time here? The climate in Atlanta, found in the piedmont in the Southeastern USA is significantly different then Munich, found near the Alps in northern Europe where you can find mugo growing in the wild. The Atlanta average winter low is 34 F, Munich is 24F. We usually don't see freezing temps until November and our winter is short...trees are pushing foliage by mid to late March and we can see our first temps exceed 90 F in April. Three years ago, we had 90 days that reached or exceeded 90 F. The average summer high in Munich is apparently 76 F. Definitely not the same climate by a long shot. It has nothing to do with not liking mugo pine and everything to do with being able to successfully grow it. How's this for political correctness- you don't know what your talking about and you should have checked your facts before posting...sheesh.

 

[Dalmat]

Seriously?? Have you ever spent any significant time here? The climate in Atlanta, found in the piedmont in the Southeastern USA is significantly different then Munich, found near the Alps in northern Europe where you can find mugo growing in the wild. The Atlanta average winter low is 34 F, Munich is 24F. We usually don't see freezing temps until November and our winter is short...trees are pushing foliage by mid to late March and we can see our first temps exceed 90 F in April. Three years ago, we had 90 days that reached or exceeded 90 F. The average summer high in Munich is apparently 76 F. Definitely not the same climate by a long shot. It has nothing to do with not liking mugo pine and everything to do with being able to successfully grow it. How's this for political correctness- you don't know what your talking about and you should have checked your facts before posting...sheesh.

I know what I am talking about and I have used Munich cause I thought you'll be more familiar with that geographic area
then you'll be with my country location and my USDA zones. And I assure you there are bonsai mugos here

 

[Dav4]

I know what I am talking about and I have used Munich cause I thought you'll be more familiar with that geographic area
then you'll be with my country location and my USDA zones. And I assure you there are bonsai mugos here

Looking at just the climactic zones is always a mistake. There's no way you can reasonably compare Atlanta and Munich and say they have similar climates. I could grow them in Massachusetts, but I can't grow them here, so why bother trying something futile when I have other pine trees that grow well...Just doesn't make any sense.

 

[armetisius]

So you JBP lovers,please take an effort and compare any variation of USDA zone maps and compare Munich Germany (that is were
Walter Pall lives) and Atlanta, Ga.
And then cut that BS about mugo can't be grown there and it needs super extra attention.
Skip that political correctness and say I don't like mugo for bonsai or I am incapable of doing so ( Boon didn't show me how to)
To stay on the thread same goes for Scott pine.

Okay I have done so and you should do the same. Here are a couple of links that have it charted:
http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/atlanta/georgia/united-states/usga0028
http://www.worldweatheronline.com/Munich-weather-averages/Bayern/DE.aspx

Bio/Hort--090:
I have had this discussion with people before. It is called "fading" [or "cooking out" colloquially] and it is a very real condition here in the South.
No creature can live without an appropriate rest/dormancy period which varies by species and somewhat by individual. Same reason you can't grow
pines in Hawaii or maples in Miami. As I write, it is 6:45 AM and already 73F in the Atlanta Georgia area. It was over 90F yesterday and forecast
for the high 80's today. Both of which, according to the charted data, are not common temperatures for Munich. As you can see as well the night
temperatures are also very different with our nights almost matching your daytime high temperatures.
But this is not the real problem; it comes in the winter. Our winters are not long enough, nor cold enough long enough, to induce full dormancy in
some species. It is like if I only allowed you three hours of sleep for weeks on end, then woke you one night for a twenty mile hike. Chances are,
if you were still alive by then, you would not survive the physical endeavor. It works the same here on more than a few species of plants.
Through the years I have purchased more than my share of fir, spruce, larch, certain ilex, certain pines, certain euonymus and others, only to watch
them die within a year or two. Few summers ago I dropped by Bill Valavanis, [very gracious as I had missed his show the previous weekend and he had a
workshop the next day--thanks again Bill (btw: love the book)] and he had some of the prettiest deciduous hollies I have ever seen. Did I buy one?
No. Reason? I have tried the deciduous hollies here (4 times) and they just do not survive more than 2 years or so, [plus I was not going to be home
for another three months and could not see trying to travel and tend a tree simultaneously] and I could not/would not put those lovely specimens
through a long withering death.
When you assume that just because "it doesn't freeze to death there; you should be able to grow it" you are ignoring the flip side of the coin. Too little rest
compounded by our "get up and get with it" climate and the plant just cannot build enough strength/get enough rest to make it through the heat stress of
our summers for long.
Just because you have no understanding of our climate is no reason to call BS on something. Love the quick plug for your favorite "Grand Poobah" too; however,
there are some things NO teacher can overcome. Climatic norms for an area being one of them.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

he had some of the prettiest deciduous hollies I have ever seen. Did I buy one? No. Reason? I have tried the deciduous hollies here (4 times) and they just do not survive more than 2 years or so.

Since this thread is blown up anyway...
Are you referring to Ilex serrata? I have a female from Brent going very strong for 5-6 years now, and will begin propagating it next year. It's about 5' tall now from a 2 3/4" pot.

 

[armetisius]

Since this thread is blown up anyway...
Are you referring to Ilex serrata? I have a female from Brent going very strong for 5-6 years now, and will begin propagating it next year. It's about 5' tall now from a 2 3/4" pot.

And you are STILL a hundred and fifty miles NORTH of me and benefit from the mountainous terrain surrounding you.
Not a very fair comparison. Show us your prize winning fir or spruce, or your larch in the ground; once again cherry picking
to have something to say even if it isn't informative or completely misses the point. pity.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

And you are STILL a hundred and fifty miles NORTH of me and benefit from the mountainous terrain surrounding you.
Not a very fair comparison. Show us your prize winning fir or spruce, or your larch in the ground; once again cherry picking to have something to say even if it isn't informative or completely misses the point. pity.

Opelika is about 80 miles south of Birmingham, and then East, but I was honestly curious if you were referring to Ilex serrata. My first advice to people starting bonsai is to grow what grows in your area, so you have no arguement with me if that's what you're trying to say.

 

[jeanluc83]

One thing to consider is the possibility that different strains of mugo pine and scots pine may have better heat and cold tolerance. A case in point is the American red maple, acer rubrum. It is one of the most wide spread trees in North America stretching from southern Florida north into Canada. It is not the best subject for bonsai but there are red maple in Florida that have naturally small leaves and short internodes. My understanding is that they are more suited for bonsai culture but not as cold tolerant as those found in the north. While they are the same species they are not able to survive in the harsher climate even within the trees natural range. This same regional variation could also be found in mugo and scots pines. Seeds sourced from pines growing closer to the trees' southern range may have more heat tolerance than those in the northern range. It would be interesting to see where the verities commonly found for sale came from originally.

 

[armetisius]

One thing to consider is the possibility that different strains of mugo pine and scots pine may have better heat and cold tolerance. A case in point is the American red maple, acer rubrum. It is one of the most wide spread trees in North America stretching from southern Florida north into Canada. It is not the best subject for bonsai but there are red maple in Florida that have naturally small leaves and short internodes. My understanding is that they are more suited for bonsai culture but not as cold tolerant as those found in the north. While they are the same species they are not able to survive in the harsher climate even within the trees natural range. This same regional variation could also be found in mugo and scots pines. Seeds sourced from pines growing closer to the trees' southern range may have more heat tolerance than those in the northern range. It would be interesting to see where the verities commonly found for sale came from originally.

True. Just as, on a lark, I selected some seed while in Milwaukee of Caragana arborescens or Siberian peashrub.
Let me assure you--they are NOT the rapid growing pest species here that they are there. Most things coming
through the trade now seem to have the grower impressed on the label. I have found it most interesting and
have started a list of new acquaintances I wish to cultivate.

 

[Adair M]

I am no Mugo expert. Steve at Plant City Bonsai in Clermont has a few Mugo. I mentioned to him that I had had no luck with them in the past. He said these were a "warm weather" cultivar.

I have no way to verify. If interested, call Steve.

I will also add that Atlanta is very humid relative to the Swiss Alps where this tree is native. That may have something do with it, too.

 

[Adair M]

About Munich... I remember visiting there one summer, and it was about 80 degrees. All the locals were dying of the heat! They were swearing it was the hottest they had ever experienced!

I just had to laugh!

And during the Atlanta Olympics, they were afraid all their Dressage horses were going to die of heat stroke! (As if we don't have horses here.)