Radial roots: check. What now??

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Hi,

My first post :) I’ve just been reading a lot. But now I have a dilemma and want to know the thoughts of some more experienced growers...
I grew some cultivars of A. Palmatum seeds into 2-3 year old little trees in colanders. My first concern was to get nice radial roots. In the first 2 years the trees created some fine radial roots.
In a month I start repotting and I was wondering what is next.
I’m planning on working the roots some more and place them in a bigger colander. But what about pruning?
Say with one tree I want to have a final height of 40cm and I want a more masculine tree (so fat trunk, thick branches and strong movement) Do I let it grow until the trunk reaches the good size and prune then to create taper and start a new branch each chop? Taking care of large wounds...
Or do I prune now to get some nice movement and grow the branches already? The thickening of the trunk will happen while growing out the branches...
Has someone already tried both methods and share his/her experience? Is it possible to create good taper in the trunk with growing the branches?
And what if we want to create a more feminine tree? Do you put the soft curvatious movement in the trunk when it is still flexible and make the tree without doing a trunk chop? So growing the taper with the branches..
 

Njyamadori

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Hi,

My first post :) I’ve just been reading a lot. But now I have a dilemma and want to know the thoughts of some more experienced growers...
I grew some cultivars of A. Palmatum seeds into 2-3 year old little trees in colanders. My first concern was to get nice radial roots. In the first 2 years the trees created some fine radial roots.
In a month I start repotting and I was wondering what is next.
I’m planning on working the roots some more and place them in a bigger colander. But what about pruning?
Say with one tree I want to have a final height of 40cm and I want a more masculine tree (so fat trunk, thick branches and strong movement) Do I let it grow until the trunk reaches the good size and prune then to create taper and start a new branch each chop? Taking care of large wounds...
Or do I prune now to get some nice movement and grow the branches already? The thickening of the trunk will happen while growing out the branches...
Has someone already tried both methods and share his/her experience? Is it possible to create good taper in the trunk with growing the branches?
And what if we want to create a more feminine tree? Do you put the soft curvatious movement in the trunk when it is still flexible and make the tree without doing a trunk chop? So growing the taper with the branches..
I’m a beginner so don’t really do what I say.
First we need to see pictures of these so we can really see. We can’t tell you what to do when we can’t see 😂. I would just wire in some movement on the trunks for now
 

Rivian

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Is it possible to create good taper in the trunk with growing the branches?
yes through sacrificial branches and partial defoliation. Maybe use that for the feminine tree and create the masculine one with trunk chops primarily.
 

Dav4

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You build the trunk and the nebari at the same time. Wiring and/or pruning for movement is very important at this stage. 2-3 yr old seedlings aren't likely to be wired effectively (the new semi hardened growth in the spring is the best to wire), so pruning for direction is what needs to be done now, followed by vigorous top growth to build the trunk. I prefer directional pruning every few years while building the trunk as it reduces the scarring.... it takes longer this way but the results are better, imo. Re-pot/root work annually or every 2 years is needed as well. Hopefully your trees were planted at an angle at the soil surface so they already have some movement way down low. Generally, I'm not too concerned about branches until the trunk is fairly far along, as you can pretty much graft branches wherever you like onto a mature trunk. If you haven't already seen this thread, read it https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ebihara-maples.18215/ ... lot's of great info is in there
 
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JonW

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There are two schools of thought. One is to grow it until the trunk reaches the thickness that you want with no / minimal pruning. However, when you do go to prune, you might have to make big cuts that might leave big scars, and result in rapid growth in response to the foliage removed that might be have long, straight internodes or come off at odd angles. The other school of thought is to prune at least in the fall (or spring) because it isn't the amount of branches that thickens the trunk, but rather the foliage mass during the growing season: when you prune during dormancy (fall or spring), you only remove branches, not foliage, the the tree will activate the same number of buds / make the same amount of leaves, just closer into the tree, in the Spring/growing season. This would result in more natural movement and fewer pruning scars, but some people still feel this slows down the rate of the trunk thickening. I haven't done comparison trees of the same variety in these two different ways in order to tell, but I go for the second option - pruning at least once a season (particularly after leaf fall or at least most of the leaves changing color).
 

Shibui

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I have used free growth followed by large chop. Trunk increase is certainly rapid but the large cuts require years more growth to cover over. Trunk shape tends to be stiff, straight and vertical.
I have moved on to more regular pruning. I still get good thickening. I also get changes of direction from the new shoots after pruning. Many new shoots after pruning also adds lots of taper to the trunk and gives more options to prune for trunk shape. Scars are generally smaller so fewer years to heal.
I would not go back to growing a single trunk to size before chopping hard.

You will get some thickening while developing branches but good branch development also requires regular pruning and pinching to keep internodes shorter and to promote ramification so trunk thickening is reduced relative to allowing one or more leaders to grow freely. Develop trunk to almost final thickness before moving to develop branches on deciduous. Branches can be developed on many conifers while using sacrifice branches to increase trunk thickness.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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When you repot, be sure to angle the trunk at least 15 degrees off vertical. Trunks that are bolt upright, really only work for "formal uprights" and "formal broom style". Formal upright is not a good style for maple. Formal broom can be done with a maple, but better for maple is an informal broom style. For informal styles, the trunk is not vertical. I usually shoot for about 30 degrees off vertical, but it is up to you.

You mentioned you want a 40 cm tall finished tree. That is good. Generally, if one is "playing build a tree", one effective guideline is the first third of the 40 cm tree, roughly 13 cm, will the main trunk or if you do an informal broom, the main trunk and sub-trunks. Then the second third, roughly from 13 cm to 26 cm above the soil, here is where all the main branching goes on, and the last 13 cm will be the finest twigs and leaves.

I would follow @Dav4 's recommendation. So if your main trunk was to have movement, I would do that first "chop" at roughly 6 or 7 cm, that means you would have a change of direction in the first third of the tree. Then let the tree grow out. In a couple of years, or three, cut back this time to about 13 cm. Then let grow out. Then in a couple or so years, select keeper sub-trunks, cut off the rest and cut the keepers back to somewhere between 13 cm and 26 cm. The cycles continues until the trunk diameter gets close to what you want for your finished tree.

For a 40 cm tall tree, for a slender tree look, 4 cm diameter trunk is good, for a more ancient look a 10 cm diameter trunk would be really good.
 
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Thank you all for the input. Definitely some good information.
I made some of them angular at the start. Some of them have multiple trunks at the base and some of them are more straight. Here is one tree that I really like with a relatively straight first section of the trunk.
 

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I’m just wondering... Say I cut this 2 year old tree to establish some taper. I keep 2 branches. 1 for new apex, 1 for first branch (which I keep short when creating the trunk for shorter internodes and ramification). I let the new apex grow for 2 - 3 years. The wound closes. I make a new chop and repeat for second branch. And so on...
Is the taper not going to disappear after a while because you keep the branches short and most of the resources go to the new apex?
 

leatherback

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Is the taper not going to disappear after a while because you keep the branches short and most of the resources go to the new apex?
Taper will be less than initially. The tree will however not try to grow the apex heavier. But doubling diameter of a trunk twice as thick as the apex requires 16 times more wood to be formed than doubling the apex. As such, the trunk higher up in the tree increases in diamater much faster than lower down.

You need to grow the lower section therefor much longer than the sections higher up before you chop.
 
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Taper will be less than initially. The tree will however not try to grow the apex heavier. But doubling diameter of a trunk twice as thick as the apex requires 16 times more wood to be formed than doubling the apex. As such, the trunk higher up in the tree increases in diamater much faster than lower down.

You need to grow the lower section therefor much longer than the sections higher up before you chop.
So these youngsters have a diameter of 1,5 - 2cm. It might be to soon to make a first cut?
 

Shibui

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It is never too early to make the first cut. Anything you lose in growth rate will be well and truly made up for in better quality trunks.
Also keep working the roots. Root ramification is just as important to a balanced nebari as ramification of branches above.
 

BonsaiNaga13

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So these youngsters have a diameter of 1,5 - 2cm. It might be to soon to make a first cut?
I cut a sweet gum around 2 or 3 years old down to the lowest bud (3 or 4 cm) leaving a stub for die back because the original trunk was too thick to wire already (about pencil thickness). Once the branch was long enough I wired some curves to create a new trunk line and removed the stub. Now I have a seedling with low movement that's about the same height as the ones I didn't chop and the wound just about healed over already. Now I can grow the trunk to my desired thickness and theoretically since there's no strait sections I can cut back wherever I feel is reasonable. I assume it's the same with maple
 
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