soo if I built a raised bed garden that I would treat like a green house come colder weather and all of winter (with a fan and thermostat to keep the temps down in mid winter) would it be advisable to fill it with bonsai type soil or should I stick with just soil, regaurdless I'll have to buy the soil and haul it in (or get amends from the transferstation) my local soil on my property is largely alkaline over most of it the top soils pretty much useless untill you get into the woods where leaves have turned to compost, even there thats only the top inch or two the rest is ugly grey sandy stuff and clay.
Raised bed greenhouse?
- Thread starter Austin
- Start date
If I was building another cold-house in a northern state I'd want it big enough to walk into. I'd berm up the sides so that I could mitigate some of the cold.
It would still freeze up and still only be a cold-house without a lot of supplimental heat.
My last one was in Henniker NH...
It would still freeze up and still only be a cold-house without a lot of supplimental heat.
My last one was in Henniker NH...
MrFancyPlants
Masterpiece
Depending on how big your bed will be, I wouldn't spend too much money on premium bonsai soil components, but having some components granular in nature, will help when it comes to moving back into a pot. I used turface and composted cow manure and topped it of with some wood chips, but my trees were already in pond baskets so I didn't have to worry about the manure being too rich. I also dug into the naive soil a bit deeper than neccesary and started mixing in greater proportions of my amendments as I backfilled to ease the transition. Expanded shale could be A good cheap aggregate to mix in too. I haven't tried the burried de-icing cable on a thermostat yet, but I hear it can help winterise and or give your plants a jump on spring.
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I was mulling this over last night and thought that perhaps it would be more intelligent to simply dig the entire thing into the ground.
but still fill it with a well draining soil like lava rock from an aggrate place (you know like gardentopper filler stuff you see that get put on top of like a preen sheet) and a minimal amount of peat and pine bark chips then fill in the top couple inches with something like turface, then cover the whole thing with bark come winter.
with it being dug into the ground it would basically be what people suggest to do for thier trees in winter
"dig a hole in the ground in a sheltered area, fill with some rock for drainage, place in tree surround planter with rock then cover with bark"
does this sound like it would be on the right track?
I saw a tutorial on how to root cuttings with this Hydroton hydroponic potting medium and was very impressed with what it did in a months time for a root system. (the hydroton is similar to lavarock)
but still fill it with a well draining soil like lava rock from an aggrate place (you know like gardentopper filler stuff you see that get put on top of like a preen sheet) and a minimal amount of peat and pine bark chips then fill in the top couple inches with something like turface, then cover the whole thing with bark come winter.
with it being dug into the ground it would basically be what people suggest to do for thier trees in winter
"dig a hole in the ground in a sheltered area, fill with some rock for drainage, place in tree surround planter with rock then cover with bark"
does this sound like it would be on the right track?
I saw a tutorial on how to root cuttings with this Hydroton hydroponic potting medium and was very impressed with what it did in a months time for a root system. (the hydroton is similar to lavarock)
it is intended to be a cold house for winter and a place for me to put trees "in the ground" to thicken up and I was hoping it would eliminate the pond baskets.
design wise I would just have doors on it that I could lift up and prop up to get inside, I'm thinking 4 feet wide by 20 feet long so I can reach in from either side and get at everything.
and has anyone ever tryed doing something like this with bonsai medium? I couldn't find anything about it on the internet all last night.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"it is intended to be a cold house for winter and a place for me to put trees "in the ground" to thicken up and I was hoping it would eliminate the pond baskets.
design wise I would just have doors on it that I could lift up and prop up to get inside, I'm thinking 4 feet wide by 20 feet long so I can reach in from either side and get at everything."
The issue you're going to have is high temperatures in the summer. Most bonsai growers (me incuded) overwinter warmer climate plants in cold greenhouse over the winter and bring them out come spring time in their containers. I have a collected Texas live oak I've been doing this with for over 10 years now. I can't imagine leaving it under glass (even with extensive ventilation) in the summer. The humid hot conditions in a greenhouse are no place for temperate zone plants all year (and there is no benefit in in ground planting if you don't leave them in the ground for more than three years or more).
That said, have at it. It's an expensive project for not much return, or probably dead trees, but hey...I'm just a negative Nelly.
design wise I would just have doors on it that I could lift up and prop up to get inside, I'm thinking 4 feet wide by 20 feet long so I can reach in from either side and get at everything."
The issue you're going to have is high temperatures in the summer. Most bonsai growers (me incuded) overwinter warmer climate plants in cold greenhouse over the winter and bring them out come spring time in their containers. I have a collected Texas live oak I've been doing this with for over 10 years now. I can't imagine leaving it under glass (even with extensive ventilation) in the summer. The humid hot conditions in a greenhouse are no place for temperate zone plants all year (and there is no benefit in in ground planting if you don't leave them in the ground for more than three years or more).
That said, have at it. It's an expensive project for not much return, or probably dead trees, but hey...I'm just a negative Nelly.
I should really outline my whole idea at once rather than one aspect.
the walls of the green house would just be removable frames with plastic covering that I would apply around fall and take off in spring time so it would be a green house so to speak but adaptable.
hell I have the plastic and wood and chiken wire (left over from the chiken coop) the fans and the airlock thingy for airflow. (two of them infact) bacisally all I would need to buy is the potting medium and a thermostat, also being a buisness I can order bulk and get a buisiness discount on it even after the bulk discounts. ( not that it's a huge difference)
but you have a tendencey to overlook what I am asking, what I wanted to know is would using bonsai type medium be good or bad?
and I need some negative feed back on ideas, I do tend to overlook the negatives when I'm focused on a possible positive.
and thanks for the infromation on how long to leave them in the ground a lot of what I read said between 2 and 5 years in ground.
A hoop house over tree babies in the bed, will have to be removed (not just opened) May to October, or the tree babies will cook in the house.
Mine had to come up and out onto benches earlier than I thought ideal. (survivable, but not ideal) And, I could open up my banked-in cold frame wide.
Any loose particle medium will work to nest your tree babies in seasonaly.
Somehow I'm not shaking the impression your trying to enlarge your season. I don't think you can get there from here this-a-way.
When I wanted tree babies to bulk up, I left them in a well amended bed and let them rip for 3 or 4 years. No hoop house. when it was time to coppice trees, I'd start cutting down the root ball in the bed. after a year or two it would go into 10-20 gallon tree-pot and then into a cut-short (5 gallon) food grade pail or a crate, a year or two later.
my lengthening of the summer season is a side project, I will grow bonsai normally, and I will work on the lengthening season project after I know for a fact what I'm doing, no sense in building a 200 dollar cooler and have no real use for it.
I was just curious as a garden of lavarock for medium would allow airflow and plenty of space for the treelings to grow roots, and I have reserved hopes that perhaps if watered properly may infact have a positive effect on the root system, by never being walked on or compacted by to many smaller particles.
I would also use this cold frame to winter over my potted plants.
also if a cold frame works for me in my climate to say winter over a ginko tree or japanese maple tree, then it ellimantes the need for the wintering cooler indoors, unless I feel like progressing in that direction at a later date. ( I still think of it as a fun idea to entertain but would be more work than it is likely worth but no one will know until it's tested regaurdless)
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
The problem here is that you're reinventing the wheel yet again. A polytunnel is a much more sensible and inexpensive alternative to a temporary greenhouse. It will do the same thing, is more easily removable, cheaper and already available...
They can be built with minimal add-ons and minimal size, to all the bells and whistles with eight foot ceilings...
http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/category/hobby-cold-frames?gclid=CJiqk_WAr7UCFWamPAodYAEAgg
They can be built with minimal add-ons and minimal size, to all the bells and whistles with eight foot ceilings...
http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/category/hobby-cold-frames?gclid=CJiqk_WAr7UCFWamPAodYAEAgg
stapleing some plastic to a wooden frame isn't easy? and would cover the entire thing for the same price as a "Cold Frame Single" from the link you just sent me actually less because I would be using scrap wood left over from manufacturing jobs. and the roof would be nothing more than a tarp of the same material as the walls.
a rool of 8 foot wide by 20 foot long plastic I would use is 8 bucks.
any mention of chicken wire for walls is to keep squirrels and rabbits and moles and mice out. and would be in place year round.
I would still like your input on the soil idea.
again you dodge my question to argue that I am doing this wrong and not cost effectively, when I all ready have the building materials aside from proper soil. That are left over from older projects, we have a barn that we store stuff in extra machine parts and any excess materials from jobs, there 30 years worth of computers motors wires hydrolics engines horse saddles chicken farming equipment farming impliments snowmobiles motorcycles and almost anything else related to mechanics and computers, as we build machines from scratch for jobs to outproduce china in the manufacturing sector for wood products in a two man shop.
I have access to WAY more building equipment and raw material than anyone on this forum (said with 90% certainty as theres all ways a chance some old farmer could have a 60 year old collection that dwarfs mine in three quansets)
a rool of 8 foot wide by 20 foot long plastic I would use is 8 bucks.
any mention of chicken wire for walls is to keep squirrels and rabbits and moles and mice out. and would be in place year round.
I would still like your input on the soil idea.
again you dodge my question to argue that I am doing this wrong and not cost effectively, when I all ready have the building materials aside from proper soil. That are left over from older projects, we have a barn that we store stuff in extra machine parts and any excess materials from jobs, there 30 years worth of computers motors wires hydrolics engines horse saddles chicken farming equipment farming impliments snowmobiles motorcycles and almost anything else related to mechanics and computers, as we build machines from scratch for jobs to outproduce china in the manufacturing sector for wood products in a two man shop.
I have access to WAY more building equipment and raw material than anyone on this forum (said with 90% certainty as theres all ways a chance some old farmer could have a 60 year old collection that dwarfs mine in three quansets)
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Polytunnels made to overwinter plants aren't the same as scrap wood with plastic sheeting from Home depot (or leftover from construction or whatever). If you're set on building this from scratch, do some research on what might work best.
And FWIW, raised beds are discussed ad infinitum here. You don't have to use straight bonsai soil, but well-drained soil is a must. Also for any benefit you have to leave the trees in them for about five years uninterrupted to gain any benefit as far as trunk and nebari development.
And FWIW, raised beds are discussed ad infinitum here. You don't have to use straight bonsai soil, but well-drained soil is a must. Also for any benefit you have to leave the trees in them for about five years uninterrupted to gain any benefit as far as trunk and nebari development.
monza
Shohin
I'll take a rookie stab at it. I think the soil issue may be an issue but a bigger issue is a raised bed that does not have fully insulated walls is not a good place to winter bonsai. It's now a giant pot that is fully exposed to all elements, that raised bed in IMO would be frozen solid just like a little pot. A raised box would be somewhat better but not much.
On the ground covered with mulch, in a hoop tunnel you get the ground warming effects, not so in a raised bed. So insulated shed, garage, etc. would provide better protection then a raised bed covered in poly. I have trees in training in the ground right beside my raised vegetable garden boxes. I would not leave trees in a raised garden box covered with poly.
If you want to grow them in the ground, grow them in the ground. Otherwise I'd suggest using all your materials and build a insulated shed to place your potted trees on the ground in the shed all mulched in. Look I avoided the soil question yet once again...
Now I read rockm's link, my theory on the raised bed may be some what wrong BUT it gets cold here and even landscaping trees/ shrubs in raised boxes in my climate do very poorly.
On the ground covered with mulch, in a hoop tunnel you get the ground warming effects, not so in a raised bed. So insulated shed, garage, etc. would provide better protection then a raised bed covered in poly. I have trees in training in the ground right beside my raised vegetable garden boxes. I would not leave trees in a raised garden box covered with poly.
If you want to grow them in the ground, grow them in the ground. Otherwise I'd suggest using all your materials and build a insulated shed to place your potted trees on the ground in the shed all mulched in. Look I avoided the soil question yet once again...
Now I read rockm's link, my theory on the raised bed may be some what wrong BUT it gets cold here and even landscaping trees/ shrubs in raised boxes in my climate do very poorly.
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Polytunnels made to overwinter plants aren't the same as scrap wood with plastic sheeting from Home depot (or leftover from construction or whatever). If you're set on building this from scratch, do some research on what might work best.
And FWIW, raised beds are discussed ad infinitum here. You don't have to use straight bonsai soil, but well-drained soil is a must. Also for any benefit you have to leave the trees in them for about five years uninterrupted to gain any benefit as far as trunk and nebari development.
RockM
the point of building it from scratch is so I can have it customized and put slats over the top for summer that are easily removable (like dowels or something) to provide partial shade during the midday time when it's hottest for more tender young plants and leaves if they need it.
it would basically be an all in one structure.
your right tho a tunnel hoop house would be less time consuming but less customizable, and more unsightly than the structure I have in mind.
thank you for the link.
And FWIW, raised beds are discussed ad infinitum here. You don't have to use straight bonsai soil, but well-drained soil is a must. Also for any benefit you have to leave the trees in them for about five years uninterrupted to gain any benefit as far as trunk and nebari development.
RockM
the point of building it from scratch is so I can have it customized and put slats over the top for summer that are easily removable (like dowels or something) to provide partial shade during the midday time when it's hottest for more tender young plants and leaves if they need it.
it would basically be an all in one structure.
your right tho a tunnel hoop house would be less time consuming but less customizable, and more unsightly than the structure I have in mind.
thank you for the link.
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rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"the point of building it from scratch is so I can have it customized and put slats over the top for summer that are easily removable (like dowels or something) to provide partial shade during the midday time when it's hottest for more tender young plants and leaves if they need it."
Which is why the sheeting on polytunnels is WHITE, to help keep the sun from heating things up too much...
Also, seedlings don't really need protection from summer sun, especially that far north. I'd be much more concerned about cooking them in an enclosure, as an enclosure like that will experience alot of heat build-up in summer regardless of slats, etc. Greenhouse effect...
Which is why the sheeting on polytunnels is WHITE, to help keep the sun from heating things up too much...
Also, seedlings don't really need protection from summer sun, especially that far north. I'd be much more concerned about cooking them in an enclosure, as an enclosure like that will experience alot of heat build-up in summer regardless of slats, etc. Greenhouse effect...
lol I could have transposed you and rockm's names as well..if I did I appologise I do that constantly dyslexia and a tracking problem (I lose whole pages at a time while reading), but if you read the thought process post (third or fourth post) I thought it would be better to dig the entire thing in and put a hoop house over it because indeed you would have to insulate it if it where a raised bed.
also you could insulate the raised bed from the outside using hay or in my case sawdust, it's what we use to keep our septic from freezing. if you didn't think of insulating the raised box.
but you bring up a good point I am trying basically to make a giant bonsai pot. suggesting it on the forum was a way to work out the kinks befor I even think about breaking ground for the project
I did say I would take the plastic sheeting down and put it back up in accordance to the seasons.
soo then I don't need slats, cuts my build time and project cost in half (if I had to pay for the slats)
but another aspect is acclimating your tropicals to summer sun after having wintered indoors under un natural light, so instead of leaving them in a shay area I just put them under slats to make the shade, then I would only need to move the trees themselves twice a year once in fall and once in spring instead of three times.
would that be entirely unnecessary as well?
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"would that be entirely unnecessary as well?"
Pretty much...at your latitude, full sun all at once isn't going to hurt them. I used to plunk my indoor ficus out in full Va. sun as soon as I could. They didn't mind. Left them in full sun all summer...
Pretty much...at your latitude, full sun all at once isn't going to hurt them. I used to plunk my indoor ficus out in full Va. sun as soon as I could. They didn't mind. Left them in full sun all summer...
thanks thats very useful to me at this point as I've read lots about "hardening off" your plants befor going outdoors full time in full sun. Nothing suggested that doing what you do is a good idea, however I didn't believe that the hardening off process was nessiccary after watching plenty of seedling trees and young tender leaves grow just fine in full sun for the entirety of the plants life. Yet I planned on following thru with the hardening off process anyway. not that I will after reading that you don't but from what I had gathered from the web that was the planned coarse of action.
hence why I bring questions up on the forum I may have read this and that and a little bit about those but I do not have the experience you forum members do
