Rape seed meal - Here's the problem

[Anthony]

Okay Folks,

purchased through Amazon for cheapness, naturally, Rape seed meal [ Joshua Roth - Maruta brand Japan ]
and here is the problem.

This stuff is always referenced as ---- fermented - BUT - not composted.

Well, the cakes are firstly, not evenly cut up, some are 1/2 " others 1.5 " and others up and down the
lengths.

Secondly, they smell delicious. So before the Birds and Squirrels, start seeing them as food, the
batch will be composted.

We will test 4 circles just out of curiosity.

For those who don't compost. Composting on our side means, keeping the organic heap, just
moist, no solubles are lost. The stuff to be sifted is unrecognisable, but still just finely mashed leaves etc.
Then the sifted material is further sent into a plastic barrel with a cover and kept just moist
for a year.[ kills or starves off weed seed / is it pathogens ? / other nasties ]

This should yield, a full N.P.K plus micro nutrients, and a small % of humus.

Isn't curiosity wunnerful ?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Wilson]

I use my compost strictly to add to my gardens, but it's great stuff! Fruit, veggies, shredded leaves, and some small branches, and conifer waste. This year I was greeted by an avocado tree growing in the midst, fun stuff!

 

[Anthony]

Okay an add on,

next door neighbor works at National Flour Mills, and looking at the package of Rapeseed stuff.
He laughed, and then explained that the shape showed that this was just meal expelled through
a tubing, and packaged broken.

So once again someone in Japan, figured out a way to sell to the ignorant Westerner raw expelled
meal.
Not even fermented.

We did the ferment and compost soybean meal, last year - stank to high heaven.

Fortunately, our compost, and 1/3 strength lawn fertiliser into moist soil, works.
Additionally reading shows that P part of the N.P.K is very rapidly chemically bonded to the organic
material, and in time can become toxic in soils, due to build-up.
I haven't found the release part of the P, why does it release from the organic and when - anyone ?

So instead of any more adventures in meals, we return to compost and lawn fertiliser.
Good Day
Anthony

* The lawn fertiliser we use has no P, by the way.

 

[Anthony]

@Wilson,

controversial reading says that the roots produce chemicals to attract microbes and other things/situations to aid
in feeding off of leaf mold or compost.

So if you give your bonsai aged compost, they can maintain their own health and combined with full sun, breeze and
not touching other trees, no insect or other problems.

Thus far [ 35 years or so later of Bonsai growing ] the only pests are large 4" brown grasshoppers and leaf cutting
ants.

My brother-in-law's nephew Nick, just finished his first year free of garlic spray, using basil as the companion plant
to tomatoes. No pests.
However, he did not take into account the red tomatoes attracting the birds.

He learnt to brown bag the tomatoes, and later just pick them half ripe, to ripen fully in doors.
Deep freezer is now filled at the bottom with enough tomatoes until February. When he starts again.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Wilson]

@Anthony you are a true resource of information! I too always plant basil, and tomatoes together. I can only imagine the 4" grasshoppers, when I was on a farm in Jamaica the fire flies were giant! So often folk/natural remedies and prevention are the most beneficial.

 

[Guy Vitale]

So I have a large compost bin since I love landscaping and have large trees on the property. I just separated and tuned it yesterday which got me thinking, I already use empty tea bags to fill with fertilizer and place them on my pots, what if I added compost to my fertilizer mix or just used straight compost in my bags and left them on my pots?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I used rape seed meal and it attracted a ton of flies. I mean a TON. I switched fertilizers.

 

[Adair M]

So, Anthony, you didn't try the fertilizer first?

Some put them in tea bags, then pin the bags down to the soil with a staple made from aluminum wire.

Boon has found that the little mesh bags sold for weddings work even better! You know the little metallic mesh you fill with rice for the guests to throw? Those. They're more varmit resistant, and the material doesn't stay wet.

The way the cakes are meant to be used is to let them sit for a month, then remove them before they break up.

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,'

if you compost the rape seed meal, it retains the same N.P.K and simply goes into the soil, will not attract anything
and compost never sheets or needs breaking up etc. You don't need tea bags / wedding bags or anything.

The older books speak of fermented meal, not meal from the expeller pipes.

@Guy Vitale,

You need to know the N.P.K value of your compost - normally just 1.1.1 at best. Bonsai seem to need 12 N,
so that compost would better in your soil mix [ if you need it or use an organic in the soil mix ]
_________________________________________________________

Anyone want to try composting the rapeseed meal and using it as the organic in the bonsai soil mix ?
As an experiment.
In the US climate, according the Louisiana or Texas agricultural edu. the organic lasts for 2 months [ this was on
Bone Meal ] in our climate it probably would be 1 month.

So even with the composted rapeseed meal, you might need external fertiliser. ???????????
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Guy Vitale]

Anthony, thanks for the feedback, I do have a soil test kit I could try on my compost, but like you mentioned compost generally has low N.P.K. values, but have many other benefits like beneficial fungi, micro organisms, etc. I'd be hesitant in using it in my soil mix as I us a course-mostly inorganic bonsai mix. I fertilize weekly with a liquid soluble seaweed and a balanced fertilizer and use tea bags filled with a mix of organic fertilizers so they are already well fed, but would think that tea bags of compost would have added benefits.

 

[Anthony]

Hee hee, Guy,

I would imagine your inorganic mix at the end of it all, has organic stuff in it.
Happy Growing
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Hey Guys,

look - https://www.planetnatural.com/product/cottonseed-meal-50-lb/

5-2- 1 and so who needs rapeseed meal. And it's local.

http://www.gardeniq.com/alfalfa-meal

3-1-2

Also local

and

https://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/ncorganic/research/soy.html

7-2-1

Good Day
Anthony

 

[Guy Vitale]

Hee hee, Guy,

I would imagine your inorganic mix at the end of it all, has organic stuff in it.
Happy Growing
Good Day
Anthony

Yes Anthony, I do add composted pine bark, but I sift it so it's mainly as course as my other ingredients. I just dont want the compost clogging my soil.

 

[Adair M]

Hey Guys,

look - https://www.planetnatural.com/product/cottonseed-meal-50-lb/

5-2- 1 and so who needs rapeseed meal. And it's local.

http://www.gardeniq.com/alfalfa-meal

3-1-2

Also local

and

https://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/ncorganic/research/soy.html

7-2-1

Good Day
Anthony

So, how do you use this compost? As a soil component?

I don't. I use an all inorganic soil. I like being able to remove the cakes when I don't want fertilizer.

Your method may work just fine for your tropical trees, but I like to be able to control when the trees have access to fertilizer.

 

[Paradox]

The way the cakes are meant to be used is to let them sit for a month, then remove them before they break up.

I use @Brian Van Fleet's recipe. I wonder how long he leaves them on his trees? Hopefully he sees this and answers.

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

according to the readings I mentioned earlier, the compost we use is sufficient to feed and the 1/3
strength Lawn fertiliser into moist soil does the rest.

We have a stronger sunlight, and the above causes smaller leaves, tighter growth, does not encourage
long, weak extensions.
In the long term we could be using soybean meal [ easily available ] composted and applied by
the teaspoonfuls.

We have been using teaspoons of Leucaena l. leaf compost, which has a similar rating of Rabbit poop.
2.4 - 1.4 - o.6
And observing how it decays, feeds and what to look for.

Trees are now around 30 years, and so the idea is to go lower in N.P.K. to see what keeps Health/Lush.

Well we fertilise in the Dry Season - Jan to June and sometime July to August, then either stop
completely, as the moisture takes over or can use a osmocote type from Israel, deigned for 30 deg.c

So we are doing the same as you do.

Starting to treat the trees that are getting to a mature stage, a little differently.

If ever you wondered how strong the sunlight is - exterior paint tested in Miami and your Deserts
will easily fail outdoors and very early.
Yet we do not cross 93 deg.F and then it is only for a half hour.
Odd huh?
Thanks for chatting.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Ah yes Sifu,

I thought that tea bag bit felt familiar.

Another version of - Compost Tea.

I would probably have a N.P.K test done on what you throw away, to see what was in the tea bag at end.
Food for thought.
Always learning from you, thanks.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[63pmp]

Hi Anthony I fermented soy bean meal several years back.

I used bakers yeast after soaking bean meal in water to soften. The fermentation smells lovely and ended up with a nice product after a couple of weeks. Problem was the low humidity here in aus stopped the cakes of end product from "rotting" on the soul surface. I just couldn't keep it moist enough.

Oh yeah the dog loved em and kept stealing the cakes for snacks.

Paul

 

[MichaelS]

Anthony,

I grow orchids as well as bonsai and many other things. I make cakes from varying materials including blood and bone, rape seed (canola meal) soy bean meal, cotton seed etc. I use the B&B to give me higher P levels. I use molasses to provide the simple sugars needed for rapid fermentation. It works quite well although the line between fermentation and putrefaction is very fine. To keep the cakes from putrefying is not easy and involves quite precise moisture and temperature control. Fermentation breaks down the protein into amino acids and others. The pH is usually quite low.
Usually, by the time the cakes begin to rot (if they do), they are drying off and the process stops until they receive moisture again. There are a few differences between fermented and composted cakes. The most important being that during composting we lose some of the nitrogen to the atmosphere in the form of volatile ammonia gas (which comes from the proteins in the meals). Another difference is that after composting is over (mature), much of the protein has been mineralized into ammonium. The release of this ammonium can be very rapid when watered. Composted organic material will therefore not last as long as un-composted. It can no longer be regarded as a slow release form of fertilizing which is the whole point of the cakes. It's effect may last as little as a week as opposed to a month for the hard fermented cakes. Also, if the pH is not too low, some of the ammonium will be converted to nitrate which is very easily leached. Preferably, we want the nitrification to occur in the pot rather than in the fertilizer so we can get a gradual nitrogen feed.
I have ground up the fermented cakes and ''composted'' them moist for up to four months. The composting is done when you can no longer smell any trace of ammonia coming from the material. I do this for feeding very sensitive species like some high altitude orchids which can not stand any form of fresh organic fertilizers or high concentration of anything. For most trees however, I think you will get good results from using the cakes after they are only half fermented. Unfortunately this does attract rats and other things and I have had to resort to baiting to destroy the local population for any hope of fertilizing the way I want to.
The other option is to ferment the material in water, which is quite easy to do but requires much more manual work in feeding the trees. As much as 2 or 3 times per week. Something that is not possible for me!
The problem with commercial organic fertilizers is that you just don't know what you are getting. Home made stuff is usually better due to the control you can put into it. (and much cheaper of course!) Anyone with close neighbours will not want to do any of this!

 

[MichaelS]

Hi Anthony I fermented soy bean meal several years back.

I used bakers yeast after soaking bean meal in water to soften. The fermentation smells lovely and ended up with a nice product after a couple of weeks. Problem was the low humidity here in aus stopped the cakes of end product from "rotting" on the soul surface. I just couldn't keep it moist enough.

Oh yeah the dog loved em and kept stealing the cakes for snacks.

Paul

Hi Paul,
What percentage of yeast did you use. Tell me more about you process...