Rate of Growth - trunk & branches

[dbonsaiw]

I understand that this is a "how long is a string" type of question, but trying to get a back of the envelope estimation on what to expect from plain vanilla Acer Palmatum aa far as growth rates are concerned:

-- What is the relationship between growth in length of a branch to increase in thickness of the branch's base? For example, how many feet would I need to grow a branch for an inch of girth?
-- What is the relationship between growth in length of a branches to increase in thickness of the trunk's base? Similar to above - how long would I need to grow sacrifices, for example, to increase girth 1 inch?

 

[Cajunrider]

I understand that this is a "how long is a string" type of question, but trying to get a back of the envelope estimation on what to expect from plain vanilla Acer Palmatum aa far as growth rates are concerned:

-- What is the relationship between growth in length of a branch to increase in thickness of the branch's base? For example, how many feet would I need to grow a branch for an inch of girth?
-- What is the relationship between growth in length of a branches to increase in thickness of the trunk's base? Similar to above - how long would I need to grow sacrifices, for example, to increase girth 1 inch?

I remember someone posting a formula using volume of wood that really made sense.

 

[john blanch]

Seems like a difficult question. What I'm thinking is, that an inch is a lot. Never mind coming up with a basic formula. I'm sure that the time it would take would differ for different, --
species, Pot size, soil type, feeding regime, location etc.
Cutting back and re-growing for taper would slow the girth building down. A formula would be inaccurate for most.
All I can add that comes anywhere close is that, once a branch has been cut, a resulting new off- shoot will have to grow to have the same girth before that first cut branch will start to increase in girth, from the new off-shoot.

 

[penumbra]

I have about 40 cultivars, and they vary quite a bit so question cannot be answered for these. I also have a lot of plain green JM, but from many sources, and they also vary a lot.

 

[Shibui]

Stop worrying about how much growth = change in thickness. Just grow out the sacrifice branches until the thickness has increased to desired then you're done.
Knowing the details won't help it happen.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Stop worrying about how much growth = change in thickness. Just grow out the sacrifice branches until the thickness has increased to desired then you're done.
Knowing the details won't help it happen.

True that. But this is like watching grass grow.

 

[penumbra]

True that. But this is like watching grass grow.

Welcome to the wonderful World of Bonsai.
This is not meant personally, but most often people like the Idea of something more than the thing itself.

 

[rockm]

I understand that this is a "how long is a string" type of question, but trying to get a back of the envelope estimation on what to expect from plain vanilla Acer Palmatum aa far as growth rates are concerned:

-- What is the relationship between growth in length of a branch to increase in thickness of the branch's base? For example, how many feet would I need to grow a branch for an inch of girth?
-- What is the relationship between growth in length of a branches to increase in thickness of the trunk's base? Similar to above - how long would I need to grow sacrifices, for example, to increase girth 1 inch?

"how many feet would I need to grow a branch for an inch of girth?
-- What is the relationship between growth in length of a branches to increase in thickness of the trunk's base? Similar to above - how long would I need to grow sacrifices, for example, to increase girth 1 inch?"

The answer is "until it reaches an inch in girth." THere is no real way to measure this reliably or even practically. It all depends on so many factors (fertilization sun exposure, tree health, etc). Sacrifice branches take as long as they take to do their job. Same for increasing trunk diameter. One way to accelerate both is to plant in the ground and let the tree go for five years. One way to slow both down is to try to do both in a container.

 

[dbonsaiw]

This is not meant personally, but most often people like the Idea of something more than the thing itself.

No offense taken. I personally enjoy the journey. This journey is quite long, however, and also filled with unknown variables that seem to pop up after the fact that make us say "oh, I should have done x, y, and z instead". The more we know....

 

[dbonsaiw]

It all depends on so many factors (fertilization sun exposure, tree health, etc).

It seems this is too open-ended a question and a wait and see approach is required. Not to be beat a dead horse, but I would assume that the factors you list are all variables that will directly translate into branch growth. Branch growth is a direct function of good tree health, proper fertilization, sun exposure, etc. More room for roots to run = more branch growth = trunk growth. Although a number of factors will contribute to a size increase in the trunk, the single most pronounced factor is branch growth. Accordingly, I asked about the relationship of branch growth to trunk growth (understanding that there are underlying factors to branch growth).

So, is everyone saying that if I grow a dozen random plain vanilla Acer Palmatum (however genetically different they may be one to another) that not only will the branch growth differ from tree to tree, but the ratio of branch growth to trunk thickening will be so different from tree to tree that it is scientifically impossible to provide an estimate of the relationship? I'm a skeptic.

 

[Cajunrider]

True that. But this is like watching grass grow.

Tell me about that. I watch every single bud on my collected trees. Right now I have a BC that has not budged for weeks and it is driving me crazy. It's in a forest with 10 other trees that have all budded.

 

[rockm]

It seems this is too open-ended a question and a wait and see approach is required. Not to be beat a dead horse, but I would assume that the factors you list are all variables that will directly translate into branch growth. Branch growth is a direct function of good tree health, proper fertilization, sun exposure, etc. More room for roots to run = more branch growth = trunk growth. Although a number of factors will contribute to a size increase in the trunk, the single most pronounced factor is branch growth. Accordingly, I asked about the relationship of branch growth to trunk growth (understanding that there are underlying factors to branch growth).

So, is everyone saying that if I grow a dozen random plain vanilla Acer Palmatum (however genetically different they may be one to another) that not only will the branch growth differ from tree to tree, but the ratio of branch growth to trunk thickening will be so different from tree to tree that it is scientifically impossible to provide an estimate of the relationship? I'm a skeptic.

Yeah, basically. Like trying to guess how big every puppy in a litter, will be. You can have a general idea, but since you're dealing with biological beings, not chemical reactions, guessing exactly how big each puppy will get is mostly impossible. The added genetic question for both AP and dogs also comes into play "plain old vanilla" AP contain some variable genetics, which has resulted in 1000 cultivars --that are noticeable in leaf and growth habits. Things that aren't as visible, like the intricacies of adding cells and wood on trunks and branches, are probably just as variable...

I find this kind of precision expectation with bonsai kind of funny. If it were mathematically predictable down to the millimeter, it would be boring. If you take all the "guestimation" and random out of bonsai, you strip it of something...

 

[john blanch]

What I'm saying dbonsaiw is that I'd pay no attention to this type of ratio. I've learnt to grow until the scale of the trunk, branches etc. are pleasing to my eye before I concentrate on the next stage that I want to develop. Most of the time the tree wants to, say start putting effort into increasing ramification, before the branches have achieved a convincing girth and taper. However a lot of ratios and scale are to the artists own aesthetic eye. There are so many variables in bonsai, that is why it is an art. We can appreciate what the grower has allowed and developed.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

No exact formula. BUT, it is not unusual that one needs to let a tree get 10 times the final height of the planned bonsai in order to get the caliper needed for the trunk. During the first 5 to 10 years of a tree's growth, it might be allowed to grow to 10 or 20 feet tall, then cut back to less than 8 inches tall. Then allowed to grow out again. Key for increasing the caliper of trunks is the total surface area of the leaves supported by the the trunk or branch where caliper is to be increased. It doesn't matter, a few big leaves, many little leaves, what matters is the total surface , area of leaf tissue supported by the branch or trunk. The more surface area, the quicker the caliper will grow.

Again, allowing an unbranched whip to get to 20 feet tall, with just a sequence of leaves down the whip will thicken some. Similarly, a trunk with multiple branches, with many leaves on each branch, will increase in caliper in more rapidly if the total leaf surface area is greater than the simple unbranched whip example. Key is leaf surface area supported.

General "body plan" for a bonsai is in thirds, one third is the initial trunk, middle third is the main branching, outer third is the fine twigs and leaves. This of course is an idealized suggestion, not an absolute. Use it to plan out growing out and chopping back your tree.

 

[Nick121]

Makes me wonder if anybody have tried to grow hydro for the first year or two

 

[0soyoung]

Makes me wonder if anybody have tried to grow hydro for the first year or two

@cmeg1