Raw Trident...moving forward?

[mRNG]

Hey! Curious what y'all would do?
I picked up this huge trident for $35...couldn't pass that up. There's no telling how long it has been in this container...its a solid mass of roots. Percolation is fine though.
I see three options:
1. No rootwork this year and air layer branches...keep as mother tree/plant in ground
2. Chop and prepare for root grafts next year...work roots this year?
3. Ground layer
What would you do?

 

[Dav4]

I would... 1) order some trident seedlings from Matt Ouwinga
2) build a wooden grow box
3) Chop back to maybe 6 inches above the root spread (in early February)
4) when you you see buds begin to pop on the trunk, I would bare root and work the roots, removing roots growing straight down, and perform a few root grafts where needed
5) Fertilize heavily and let grow freely

That's what I would do with a tree like this that cost me $35. You may want to go a bit slower. Other options might be to be less aggressive with the chop and root work but I would want to start improving both trunk and roots asap.... but don't bother layering as there's nothing worth the effort. Good luck and have fun.

 

[Vin]

I don't know that I would ground layer this tree. There are some pretty nice roots there and you could easily either work the not so decent ones or remove them and do a few root grafts. Like Dave said, A grow box and chop would be my path as well. Nice snag for $35!

 

[mRNG]

Cheers!
I'm in luck. Matt is coming to our club meeting at the end of February. Serendipitous timing I suppose.
I do see a few buds within the first 8 inches of trunk.
I'm thinking all or nothing in the first go to make use of as much stored energy as possible.
Will document the process.
Thanks for the push!

 

[River's Edge]

Hey! Curious what y'all would do?
I picked up this huge trident for $35...couldn't pass that up. There's no telling how long it has been in this container...its a solid mass of roots. Percolation is fine though.
I see three options:
1. No rootwork this year and air layer branches...keep as mother tree/plant in ground
2. Chop and prepare for root grafts next year...work roots this year?
3. Ground layer
What would you do?

Option four
Repot in a grow box and let grow this year. Prepare the foundation for all the work ahead. Prepare seedlings for root grafts next year. The overall progress will be faster choosing this "root".

 

[Smoke]

Sometimes even 35.00 bucks is better served staying in the pocket. I call these “ magic beans” trees.

I suppose there is something to be learned here.......

 

[Smoke]

Here is what I learned:

Buy package of 25 seeds on net.
Grow ten seedlings. 15 didn’t sprout cause the seeds were probably shit from the net.
Move them to the ground in full sun for three years with no regard to rootage.
Dig up and sell all on eBay for 35.00 a piece for a total of 350.00 less the price of the crappy seeds.
Use remaining money for trident with movement, taper, and character.

Priceless

 

[plant_dr]

@Smoke I was just about to refer him to your thread about "what's going on in your backyard" for ideas what to do with this. Fresno, CA and Warrenton, NC are nearly identical in Latitude and year-round temps so he should be able to do about the same work on this tree as you do on yours season-wise. I know there is more than 30 years experience difference separating you guys but that's why he came here for help from experts. He didn't ask what to do with 35 bucks, he asked what to with the tree he already has.

@mRNG if you have another spare $35 you can buy the seeds and grow some out like Smoke said, but for some trident inspiration in regards to your current tree browse through this thread below to see what he has done with trident stumps. It's pretty impressive.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/whats-going-on-in-smokes-backyard.7195/

 

[Smoke]

@Smoke I was just about to refer him to your thread about "what's going on in your backyard" for ideas what to do with this. Fresno, CA and Warrenton, NC are nearly identical in Latitude and year-round temps so he should be able to do about the same work on this tree as you do on yours season-wise. I know there is more than 30 years experience difference separating you guys but that's why he came here for help from experts. He didn't ask what to do with 35 bucks, he asked what to with the tree he already has.

@mRNG if you have another spare $35 you can buy the seeds and grow some out like Smoke said, but for some trident inspiration in regards to your current tree browse through this thread below to see what he has done with trident stumps. It's pretty impressive.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/whats-going-on-in-smokes-backyard.7195/

I gave my expert advice. Save the money and buy something worthy. This is crap and the price reflected that. That’s my expert opinion.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Are there low buds on this tree? I’m no chop expert, but generally speaking I try to chop back to a bud.

I recall @Smoke saying something years ago about chopping the bole of the tree may yield poor results but I could be mixing things up. I distinctly remember him using the word bole because I didn’t know what the hell it was!

 

[Smoke]

Are there low buds on this tree? I’m no chop expert, but generally speaking I try to chop back to a bud.

I recall @Smoke saying something years ago about chopping the bole of the tree may yield poor results but I could be mixing things up. I distinctly remember him using the word bole because I didn’t know what the hell it was!

People are motivated by different things. I love Japanese pots. Mark R. Wrote some nice things about some members pots here. I wasn’t so moved as he was. I have about 75 really nice shohin pots that really move me, not counting the fifty that have trees in them.


As far as material, I look at it and decide how much work it will require and then decide if after the work is done could it be a masterpiece tree. If not I move on. My time is worth a lot of money and I don’t have it to waste on crappy stuff. I would rather save and buy something that “can” become worthy of the name bonsai

 

[Dan92119]

What about planting the tree out in the yard and let it grow. Then take layers from from the branches that you like.
I have purchased trees in the past just for layers and cuttings.
I like to practice new skills on trees that I haven’t paid very much for.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

I gave my expert advice. Save the money and buy something worthy. This is crap and the price reflected that. That’s my expert opinion.

Hi @Smoke,
As a Bonsai newbie who has a passion for growing trees and wishing to STILL have a desire to improve and grow trees into my retirement, I feel your advice might be a little harsh ( although probably the truth ).
Obviously you have been doing this for a while now and KNOW what kind of tree make a good purchase. I feel sorry for myself as much as @mRNG , as I have spent a lot of money on nursery trees and most of these will be USELESS if YOU were my judge, if I ever wanted a masterpiece tree of quality :-(.
So I have probably said miles tooo much here, but hey am just a bit pissed.
We learn by experience and advice .....
Charles

 

[Tieball]

I guess I would approach this tree differently. You own the tree. It’s yours. And you asked what others would do.

My approach. What I’d do. I would nick the root areas nearest the trunk...I’m not sure what that area is called...the area resembles the inside of a Y shape where two roots nearly touch but don’t....dust that with rooting powder. I would bury all these roots for the upcoming season. Bury everything. Bury all the showing roots below a moist surface...and kept moist for some time. The next season I would uncover the base and plan to see small roots growing from in between the thick roots and some growing right from those roots near the trunk. Yea! These are needed before the next stage.

The following spring. I would keep all the new small roots and the large roots but chop the large roots horizontally about an inch from the trunk. By horizontal I men parallel with the soil surface so the root protrudes further out at the end than it does close to the trunk. It’s like the cut faces down instead of out. Then, back in a wooden box, or the ground, for the season. I think the box is better because I think better control over keeping the area around the trunk primed for root growth is easier to induce new roots from those chopped large roots. I’d be sure that the tree is tied well into the box or if in the ground staked to almost eliminate wind movement to the lower trunk that would damage newly forming roots. The new roots should form with horizontal growth. This secondary rooting would then be chopped again in the same way.

The chopping of the fattened roots of today will eliminate the elbows and general unsatisfactory appearance and yet preserve a well formed connection to the trunk that to me has value. Those smaller roots will continue to add value to the appearance.

Once the new roots form...then I would chop the trunk back lower...I don’t know how low because I can’t see the future tree trunk yet.

Well....that’s my thinking.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

I would air layer at an angle 10 inches above the roots. Give it a big box to grow in. Separate and grow it out in spring next year. The base might stay alive but not sure. Repot that one in a good growing medium. Let the layer grow for a year and work the roots. When you are almost happy with the flare, chop and hope for the best. All or nothing. Buying better stock is always good, but playing is fun.

 

[Drew]

What about planting the tree out in the yard and let it grow. Then take layers from from the branches that you like.
I have purchased trees in the past just for layers and cuttings.
I like to practice new skills on trees that I haven’t paid very much for.

I planted a TM out for this very purpose last year. It has really small leaves compared to a few other TM's I have so this is why I chose it to be my stock tree. I put some movement in the new green shoots with wire before they get too brittle to bend. The plan is to then just let them grow out and thicken up the layer them off when I'm happy with its size.

 

[rockm]

People are motivated by different things. I love Japanese pots. Mark R. Wrote some nice things about some members pots here. I wasn’t so moved as he was. I have about 75 really nice shohin pots that really move me, not counting the fifty that have trees in them.
View attachment 173722 View attachment 173723

As far as material, I look at it and decide how much work it will require and then decide if after the work is done could it be a masterpiece tree. If not I move on. My time is worth a lot of money and I don’t have it to waste on crappy stuff. I would rather save and buy something that “can” become worthy of the name bonsai

View attachment 173724

"Mark R. Wrote some nice things about some members pots here. I wasn’t so moved as he was."

Err, well, um, the person making those pots is a new bonsai potter in the U.S., NOT a professional storied Japanese master. There is no real comparison between the two.

I was moved by the Sorce's work because he is on the path towards making great bonsai pots. Is he there yet? No, but his path to great stuff is shorter than a lot of Western potters making "bonsai" pots, even some who have been making them for years. We need more American potters who understand bonsai, pottery and the willingness to get out there and make stuff, even though people may turn their noses up at it at first.

Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of BOTH Japanese pots (have several dozen, including many of the fussy little shohin pots like you have ;-)) and Western bonsai pots. I appreciate both and will buy both, if the work is worth it. Among the best bonsai pots I have (and I have a lot) are pots made by Americans--Dan Gould, Ron Lang, Nick Lenz, Sara Rayner. Started buying their pots two decades ago or more when imported Tokoname stuff was extremely expensive. Haven't had any regrets, even though it's become more affordable to buy fussy pots from Japan nowadays ;-)

 

[Smoke]

hey am just a bit pissed.
We learn by experience and advice .....
Charles

Pissed is good. It is a motivator of better things. Nothing would make me more happy than to see this guy do something and make this great. I been at this forum since 2005 and many years at others before this. I have yet to see this happen so I speak from past performance.

You said we learn by experience and advice. I have the experience and gave my advice. How about a little respect for that? Others have given a blueprint on how to proceed. The final answer lies in the willingness to do the work.

JUST DO THE WORK!!!

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Pissed is good. It is a motivator of better things. Nothing would make me more happy than to see this guy do something and make this great. I been at this forum since 2005 and many years at others before this. I have yet to see this happen so I speak from past performance.

You said we learn by experience and advice. I have the experience and gave my advice. How about a little respect for that? Others have given a blueprint on how to proceed. The final answer lies in the willingness to do the work.

JUST DO THE WORK!!!

Hi Smoke,
Huge respect for you, your trees, and your advice.
Point taken , and more than happy to do the work. We wait 10 years plus, and then enjoy the results.
Charles

 

[iant]

How about spend a couple years working this tree, learn from it, maybe kill it. Maybe it gets better.
Do that for a few more years with a few other trees.
Then about 5-10 years down the road if you're into it buy better stock and work that.
Otherwise you might kill the better stock you bought now.
But Smoke is right. Looking at a tree without good nebari and without taper what do you have? A coffee mug sized trunk? That's great but now you gotta build the roots below it and then build the taper above it. You have just a point on a line. Not to say you can't do it... and you might as well go at it. Nothing lost by jumping in.... other than time and a tree.
I'm just pissed I may have killed 2 very nice pine projects this year by cutting off too much canopy without pruning the roots... Rot! I thought I'd been doing this long enough not to screw things up for no good reason. By the time I get my mistakes out I'll be a hundred years old.
Ian