Real hedging and development the Smoke way!!!

Smoke

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Thanks! I will try this next season.
[/QUOTE]
If you have any really good "herb" stores near you they will probably have it. That is how I found it. I just went into a "store" one day and asked if any growers were there. About six guys that looked like average Joe's turned around a said I am. I got them all together in a group and started firing some questions at them. These guys are as cocky as I am. One guy said bullshit to this and one said bull shit to that, but the one thing they all agreed on was the fertilizer.

I had the same experience about 15 years ago with the humic acid, in the same type of setting.

I think about things. I don't know if others here do that but I find that there are places in life that can yield unexpected bonus in something totally unrelated.
So... think about this...your going to go into business and you are going to grow plants. You want them to grow fast and "bloom" as soon as possible. You need something that will super energise your plants. Your cost is small so you have more cash to spend on better fertiliser. Good fertiliser is not cheap. Bad fertilizer is cheap.

It only stands to reason that if I am a guy growing plants in my backyard, (bonsai now, not herbs) that I may want the same thing these guys growing a "cash crop" may use. That's where I go. Same with humic acid. It makes all the nitrate stick to the roots. Yes I put it in my injector bucket.
 

my nellie

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... ...Al doesn't produce "shit" trees and to say so is just weak minded.
After reading the following
@Smoke why doesn’t the “Smoke Way” produce trees that are even remotely comparable in quality to the “Walter Pall Method” of hedging?
Please, let me complement your quote Mr. Jim Stone :
and to say so is not just weak minded but also wickedness and malice
 
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my nellie

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ALSO: take a look at the tree now compared to when I purchased it. This is a perfect example of a tree that has gained lots of girth by wiring the trunk and allowing the trunk to grow over the wire. Now three years later one can't even see a tale of where the wire was. You could early on with the barbershop swirls, but not now.

View attachment 251063
I know that the wire is left to bite deeply in the bark of pines, too (mainly by Japanese growers). And the trunk grows over the wire of course.
But I wonder whether you have decided to let the wire stay on the tree so long because of the particular texture of the bark in this species.
Is there any other species which you would treat in the same way in order to gain girth?
Thank you.
 

Smoke

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I know that the wire is left to bite deeply in the bark of pines, too (mainly by Japanese growers). And the trunk grows over the wire of course.
But I wonder whether you have decided to let the wire stay on the tree so long because of the particular texture of the bark in this species.
Is there any other species which you would treat in the same way in order to gain girth?
Thank you.
The bark texture has nothing to do with it. The wire left in the trunk is a means to an end. It will work on all broadleaf and conifers as well. Your preference.
 

Microscopic

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@Smoke why doesn’t the “Smoke Way” produce trees that are even remotely comparable in quality to the “Walter Pall Method” of hedging?
why doesn’t the “Walter Pall Method” of hedging produce trees that are even remotely comparable in quality to the “Smoke Way”?
 

Smoke

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I know that the wire is left to bite deeply in the bark of pines, too (mainly by Japanese growers). And the trunk grows over the wire of course.
But I wonder whether you have decided to let the wire stay on the tree so long because of the particular texture of the bark in this species.
Is there any other species which you would treat in the same way in order to gain girth?
Thank you.
Here is a small trident maple. Started from seed in 2013. You can see the wire in the bark very well.

1.JPG

Training in a different path was started in 2018

6.JPG

Now today the scars are barely visible. They will continue to disappear as time goes on and if I didn't tell you, one would never know there was wire in the trunk.

DSC_0013.JPG

DSC_0014.JPG

You can just make out the last of the wire in the trunk up top, It has yet to engulf it. It will.

DSC_0015.JPG
 

Colorado

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The tree that @Smoke chose as representative evidence of his method:
F8D14F66-2D33-4678-96E8-75DF79EA3C1D.png

And the tree that @Walter Pall chose as representative evidence of his method:
32FFFADD-C0D2-43C0-96DB-E64CF36B697D.png

Now you tell me which looks like a more natural, convincing, artistic bonsai tree....
 

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Mr Pall made a more natural looking tree. Mr Smoke made a more artistic tree. What's your point?

Now, if both where working with exactly the same pre bonsai, you telling me Mr Pall will make a much better tree cause his look more "natural "? Or am I missing something here?
 

Hartinez

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The tree that @Smoke chose as representative evidence of his method:
View attachment 252239

And the tree that @Walter Pall chose as representative evidence of his method:
View attachment 252241

Now you tell me which looks like a more natural, convincing, artistic bonsai tree....
What's your point?

Really though. What is your point? They are both great trees. It looks pretty clear that smoke went through and cleared out quite a bit more of the fine twigging than was done on Walters, especially if you look at the tree in leaf. But I think that’s his intention.

Similar methods. Different results. 🤷🏼‍♂️
 

Smoke

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Really though. What is your point? They are both great trees. It looks pretty clear that smoke went through and cleared out quite a bit more of the fine twigging than was done on Walters, especially if you look at the tree in leaf. But I think that’s his intention.

Similar methods. Different results. 🤷🏼‍♂️
I think many here will see a big change in my trees in the next couple years. I have only been retired since the end of March and I can do so much more with my trees than I ever did before. I have junipers and maples and pines in full sun all day now cause I can tend to them and water when necessary and pinch and hedge and do whatever I want whenever I want. I finally am getting those three and four bud cut backs on my pines that I was so envious about. Can't get those in the shade. Needed the shade cause I wasn't here to tend to them. One day here at 105 will take a tree in two hours tops!

The recent Cali juniper took three days. Couple hours early in the morning and a few hours in the late evening when the breeze kicks up. When I was working I would just come home, check the computer and shower and hit the sack. I can do much of the things that a professional artist is able to do by being home with the tree all day.
 

Smoke

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Mr Pall made a more natural looking tree. Mr Smoke made a more artistic tree. What's your point?

Now, if both where working with exactly the same pre bonsai, you telling me Mr Pall will make a much better tree cause his look more "natural "? Or am I missing something here?


Keep in mind that Walter does not have wizard hat maples. His canopies are natural and much more free form. They don't fit a shape dictated by the shape of the trunk. With the wizard hat maples one has to have some separation between the branches to achieve the correct look and feel. Totally different trees and methods.
 

Hartinez

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I think many here will see a big change in my trees in the next couple years. I have only been retired since the end of March and I can do so much more with my trees than I ever did before. I have junipers and maples and pines in full sun all day now cause I can tend to them and water when necessary and pinch and hedge and do whatever I want whenever I want. I finally am getting those three and four bud cut backs on my pines that I was so envious about. Can't get those in the shade. Needed the shade cause I wasn't here to tend to them. One day here at 105 will take a tree in two hours tops!

The recent Cali juniper took three days. Couple hours early in the morning and a few hours in the late evening when the breeze kicks up. When I was working I would just come home, check the computer and shower and hit the sack. I can do much of the things that a professional artist is able to do by being home with the tree all day.
And the results from your, not getting to give your trees the attention they like, is pretty f-ing stunning. Your personality may not be for everyone. Even for me sometimes, but no on can argue the fact that your trees look great and are very much yours.
 

Hartinez

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Keep in mind that Walter does not have wizard hat maples. His canopies are natural and much more free form. They don't fit a shape dictated by the shape of the trunk. With the wizard hat maples one has to have some separation between the branches to achieve the correct look and feel. Totally different trees and methods.
I’m seeing that. Most of your tridents that I’ve seen, have very distinguished pads. Not because your hedging is “inferior” but because they are intentionally styled that way.
 

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Really though. What is your point? They are both great trees. It looks pretty clear that smoke went through and cleared out quite a bit more of the fine twigging than was done on Walters, especially if you look at the tree in leaf. But I think that’s his intention.

Similar methods. Different results. 🤷🏼‍♂️
^^^ That was my point. Thanks for typing it out for me :)

Look at Mr Pall's tree. You see three main trunks framed by the highly ramified twigs. Makes for one cohesive image. But if you want to look closer and break it down. You get three main trunks and highly ramified twigs. Could barely make out secondary, tertiary branches. They're pretty much none existent. But the tree frames out nicely when viewed as a whole. To me.

Look at Mr Smoke's tree. Look at the trunk from base on up. When you move up, you see the first branch clearly. Further out a bit, it start to break up into more branches. Then you view up more and you can clearly see another branch growing from the trunk. Further from that branch it start to ramify. And so on till you reach the top. In that tree, you can clearly make out where each branch is coming from and where they start to ramify. That tree is interesting from top to bottom, not just as a whole. To me.
 

my nellie

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Thank you so very much for taking the time! Considering the four little tornadoes around you... (if they are alike my grandkids I mean...)
Here is a small trident maple. Started from seed in 2013. You can see the wire in the bark very well.
Now today the scars are barely visible. They will continue to disappear as time goes on and if I didn't tell you, one would never know there was wire in the trunk.
You can just make out the last of the wire in the trunk up top, It has yet to engulf it. It will.
In fact, my concern for asking the question was about a young trident which I wired two months ago and I was astonished at the deep scars upon removing the wire. Now I know I will wire it back again!
 

Jason

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Most all fertilizer is in a sense organic, in that most of it needs microbial work done to it to work. Unless fertilizer is in the form of a nitrate, it is of no use to the plant. It can't take it up. Whether the nitrate is supplied my animal waste or chemicals from the earth, they both work the same way.
This fertilizer is;
3.90% ammoniacal nitrogen
5.90% nitrate nitrogen
10.20% urea nitrogen

ammoniacal is good and requires microbial breakdown but this happens pretty fast and is used up quickly
nitrate is used by the plant immediately
Urea is good because it lasts a long time breaking up slowly and releasing as it breaks down.




View attachment 251924
It seems like I remember you being all about humic acid content. Am I missing this on the label or has your fertilizing theory evolved?
 

Jason

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Ahh... should have kept reading. So you add humid acid as an additive?
 

Smoke

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I knew I should have trademarked the expression! Did it start in the thread below Al, or has it been in circulation for a while?

Your term..not mine.
 

Smoke

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I find it usual that people that haven't made anything finished yet are always the ones that make disparaging remarks about other peoples trees like wizard hat maples or @AlainK and @sorce with the broccoli remarks.

I thought the progressives were about tolerance and togetherness. A lot of people have this conceived notion about who I am. The meme thread is one, and this one and a couple other recent ones. All try to put their spin on who I am. I'm just a guy who makes some decent little trees in his backyard and shares what he does. I am passionate about what I do and when I see someone throw stones, I call them out.


For the record @derek7745 the correct term for the style is "one , two, back branch style" a term coined by John Naka. A term I have called it for decades, and most of the bonsai people I hang with. It is a style that is used because the trunk is singular, exaggerated taper with some side to side movement and front to back movement. The apex usually finishes over the nebari and the branches are laid out with a first branch, a opposite second branch, on the out side of the curves and a back branch, placed at a back third of the trunk circumference so you can see some of it from the front. The tree is finished to the top in the same order repeated until you run out of trunk.

It doesn't matter what species is used because the nature of the trunk formation leaves you no other avenues to style the tree in. One is stuck with 1,2 back branch. It has been showed in every book that I have ever owned and is still shown today. Not once in my 35 years of bonsai, or in the books decades before that have I ever heard the term "wizard hat tree". I find the term offensive and I know why you use it.

pine bonsai.jpg 033.JPG
 

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