Red Japanese maple cultivars

[Cristian D.]

Here are my new trees, in case you would like to see them:
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/m...s-pre-bonsai-advice-needed-for-styling.34772/
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/f...make-a-broom-some-advice-needed-please.34771/

 

[Deleted member 21616]

Seigen is an outstanding old cultivar that is red in spring as well as red new growth, in the same fashion as shin deshojo, deshojo and chishio, chishio improved. My shin deshojo leaves are speckled green, somewhat like ukigumo. The others mature leaves are solid green. I've had great trouble successfully air layering it. More than a dozen layers have died the following spring because of the cambium dying and cambium being plugged near the soil level. I have only one that has survived. You may want to think twice about shin deshojo.

@0soyoung would the size of the tree, or foliage mass have any influence (negative or positive) on the success of an air layer? I am asking because I have the opportunity to acquire two 8-10 foot tall shin deshojo trees. The canopies are over 6 feet wide, the trunks are 2-3 inches in diameter, and each tree has a considerable foliage mass (a landscaping store near me is selling off their landscaping maples at 50% off, and there are 2 shin deshojos - about $50 CAD per tree).

I thought about getting these and either chopping low, or air layering. My goal would be to get a shin deshojo with a thick trunk that could be used for bonsai. (I even thought about air layering some of the thicker primary branches in 2019, before doing the main trunk in 2020 or 2021).

There are no branches on either tree until about 5 feet off the ground.

I took this picture off the web as an example, just to give you an idea of what i am looking at

 

[jmw_bonsai]

Also another idea for you, is to look into propagation methods as you learn about maples and Bonsai.

Collecting and germinating seed is relatively easy and fun way to learn maples. If you see a cultivar you like that is grated, you can still grow out and then try air layering or cuttings in the future.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

If I may make a suggestion...

Since you are in an apartment, and it sounds like you are relatively new to bonsai, I suggest you avoid the “red” cultivars. They are more sensitive and more difficult than ordinary “green” Japanese maple. No harm to visit the nursery, but almost every experienced bonsai person will tell you that the green J. Maple make better bonsai.

You could probably get a larger specimen of a green maple than one of the fancy varieties.

Then, once you have mastered it, then apply your knowledge to one of the fancy ones.

I am giving up getting more cultivars for a while. Sticking with what I have and green maples. The green species Acer palmatum is easy to work with and tough.

 

[0soyoung]

@0soyoung would the size of the tree, or foliage mass have any influence (negative or positive) on the success of an air layer? I am asking because I have the opportunity to acquire two 8-10 foot tall shin deshojo trees. The canopies are over 6 feet wide, the trunks are 2-3 inches in diameter, and each tree has a considerable foliage mass (a landscaping store near me is selling off their landscaping maples at 50% off, and there are 2 shin deshojos - about $50 CAD per tree).

I thought about getting these and either chopping low, or air layering. My goal would be to get a shin deshojo with a thick trunk that could be used for bonsai. (I even thought about air layering some of the thicker primary branches in 2019, before doing the main trunk in 2020 or 2021).

There are no branches on either tree until about 5 feet off the ground.

I took this picture off the web as an example, just to give you an idea of what i am looking at

I've never seen a deal like that for shin deshojo or I would have bought at least a couple. I don't know why you wouldn't. The advantage is that it takes 10-20 years to make a trunk that thick - you get to start from there. I might layer one on the main trunk, somewhat higher than I would be inclined to chop. Girdling the trunk will affect budding below, just like chopping. Given my experience, the end result of this may be the same as just having chopped it a been done with it.

I layer branches from my landscape specimen that would otherwise be lopped off and tossed. I find these branches generally have very nice expressive curves that would lend themselves to small, delicate, feminine bonsai trees. So, I would also layer a few branches. Of course this could be done in one season with just one tree, but $50 CAD, why not get two? Some have suggested that overwintering layers on the tree and harvesting after leaf emergence the following spring might solve my problem - so layer both trees similarly, but do the overwintering on the layers of the second.

It is interesting that my one surviving shin deshojo layer was the largest that I had done. A few weeks ago I harvested two even larger layered branches from my landscape specimen. I see no reason why this should matter as the problem I've perpetually encountered is that the layer dies after leafing out the following spring because the xylem ring connecting to the adventitious roots gets plugged.

On the other hand, if you are not interesting in my obsession with shin deshojo layering, these trees are a pretty good deal just to chop off the cultivar on top and make a bonsai of the root stock. But I do dearly love shin deshojo foliage.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

Thank you for your response!

There are only two left (put aside for me) otherwise I would have bought a few more! I haven't brought them home yet, because i need to rent a pick up truck to do so.

I love shin deshojo, and I am fascinated by your studies of this cultivar!

Girdling the trunk will affect budding below, just like chopping. Given my experience, the end result of this may be the same as just having chopped it a been done with it.

You mean to say that the upper will likely die, and I will be left with the trunk?

The graft, if any, must be below the surface right now. There is no visible graft on the trunk.

If I were to chop the trunk, say, 3-5 inches from ground level, when should I do this with this species? As buds swell, or after the leaves harden? Or at some other time?

I layer branches from my landscape specimen that would otherwise be lopped off and tossed [...] It is interesting that my one surviving shin deshojo layer was the largest that I had done.

Am i understanding correctly, of all of these primary and/or secondary branches that you are air layering, in addition to air layering of main trunks, only 1 air layer has ever survived?


Plan:

tree #1: air layer branches with overwintering (eventually trunk?). It is too late to airlayer here in Montreal I think, so I would have to air layer in the spring, right?

tree #2: chop about 3-5 inches from ground level and pray that buds emerge (or is bud emergence is pretty much guaranteed?)

 

[0soyoung]

You mean to say that the upper will likely die, and I will be left with the trunk?

I see no inherent reason for this to be the case, but my experience is that this should be expected - every layer I've made but one had died the following spring = facing facts. On the other hand, I know of no one else who has tried. It is always possible that it is a problem with my mother tree, my environment, or something I am doing (again and again and again). So, out of personal interest I encourage you to try; out of intellectual/horticultural/biological/physiological/scientific interest I encourage you to try and share your result. But, my data says .... IOW, if this non-sense doesn't really interest you, just chop it and move on with making your bonsai.

If I were to chop the trunk, say, 3-5 inches from ground level, when should I do this with this species? As buds swell, or after the leaves harden? Or at some other time?

I would do it in the spring, 'as buds swell'. The problem with fall (even though the roots have been fed all season) is that acer palmatum has a strong tendency to die back and you can wind up will a very ugly mess as a consequence. We could discuss the merits of other times, but the point is simply to chop after the roots have been well fed (foliage and new growth hardened for a while, first).

Am i understanding correctly, of all of these primary and/or secondary branches that you are air layering, in addition to air layering of main trunks, only 1 air layer has ever survived?

Yes, correct (though I have not layered the main trunk - it is a landscape specimen! ).

Am i understanding correctly, of all of these primary and/or secondary branches that you are air layering, in addition to air layering of main trunks, only 1 air layer has ever survived?

That's correct (see 'What's the Deal ..." for details). Again, no main trunks, but branches up to inch-ish size.

Plan:

tree #1: air layer branches with overwintering (eventually trunk?). It is too late to airlayer here in Montreal I think, so I would have to air layer in the spring, right?

Indeed, it is too late. Next spring 'as buds swell. I like to cut the girdles then because I can see what I'm doing. Nothing much will happen in the way of growing adventitious roots until after the foliage has hardened, though.

Plan:

tree #2: chop about 3-5 inches from ground level and pray that buds emerge (or is bud emergence is pretty much guaranteed?)

I would chop first 6 to 12 from the ground. You can then revise when you see where you've gotten shoots, later in that season or the next (next is advisable as new shoots are easily dislodged).

 

[Deleted member 21616]

@0soyoung thank you so much for all of this precious information

I will definitely do as much testing as i can, and will document every step!

If i am not mistaken, each shin deshojo had a different tag. One was from a grower in Ontario, while the other was from a grower in Quebec. I could perhaps treat them both equally and see if different 'strains', if they are different, would react differently.

I'm in no rush, happy to experiment before I get too serious with this tree.

again, thank you so, so much!

 

[0soyoung]

If i am not mistaken, each shin deshojo had a different tag. One was from a grower in Ontario, while the other was from a grower in Quebec. I could perhaps treat them both equally and see if different 'strains', if they are different, would react differently.

That will be interesting!

I'm in no rush, happy to experiment before I get too serious with this tree.