Red pine loosing leedles - buds not open

[baron]

I'm very afraid this one is gone or at least declining very fast and I don't get why.
Its needles are turning brown on what seem to me random locations and the candles aren't extending (all over the tree).

It was repotted last year and grew fine the season after.
Last thing done do it was thinning out some of the end bud to pairs of two.

Past month we had a small heatwave (around 30°C daily) but that shouldn't be high enough to affect it?
I kept a very close eye on the needles to not overwater it and then suddenly it went from green to this in a few days.

Needlecast? Overwatering?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Might have been too dry for a couple days and not enough coolant in the tank to stay fresh, maybe air pockets in the soil (got two of my scots pines acting up; one because of air pockets, the other due to a lack of water in early spring and it's still recovering). But it's weird that it's not leafing out.. All of my red pines are hardening off their needles right now. And just the two scots pines are late.

Did you have the same wet spring as we had over here? Remember how it suddenly went from 12 degrees and wet, to 18 degrees and dry? That's where I missed two waterings because I expected rain that never came, and I'm dealing with some fallout from that.

 

[baron]

Yes, we've had a weird spring. It was a mild winter without too much freezing, but then a wet spring with a couple late unexpected freezes and other temperature swings.
If anything, that would be my guess. But does it explain the buds not showing any progress at all?

 

[RosePastry]

I am very interested in finding out whats bothering your tree. My white pine is behaving similarly and I'm at a loss as I've never had a problem with them before.

What I've been doing is moving it to only morning/evening sun and its been slowly pushing out new needles in bursts amongst all the browning.

I know its not exactly the same but its something I think that helps me just as much as it might help the tree.

 

[Paradox]

@baron
How often were you watering it during the last couple of months?

 

[baron]

@baron
How often were you watering it during the last couple of months?

last couple of month; every other day
last week; daily, sometimes a 2nd time just to moisten to top layer

 

[Shibui]

Red pine down here seems to be far more sensitive to root problems than other pines. Both too dry and too wet can cause similar symptoms so can be hard to tell what's affecting it unless you know all the circumstances. The red pines that have died here have not been repotted for a number of years and I assume the soil mix has deteriorated and the roots stayed too wet/ not enough air. When decline happens during summer underwatering is far more likely. If decline happens winter through spring it's likely to be root rot from too much water IMHO. Given candles have not extended in spring I think root problem is more likely, possibly now aggravated by the warmer weather and the tree cannot absorb enough water due to sick roots.

Needle cast is relatively easy to diagnose. Needles will have yellow to brown stripes across the needles. It usually affects new needles.

 

[baron]

Thnx for the input! I'm quite sure it's not needlecast then.

The tree was repotted last year. It's quite an old and compact root ball already, but soil is still draining well when watered.

Verpottingen.

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Then again as you said it could be from overwatering (during the winter months due to excessive rain), or underwatering (now the last week(s) and heat swings).
But I was always told pines show their problems with a delay (few months).

Up until now I have left it in the same spot. Should I try n move it into a more shaded location? Or is that going to make things worse?

 

[baron]

Would it be a good thing to remove to brown needles to give more light to the (still not open) buds or let them fall off themselfs?

 

[Potawatomi13]

I kept a very close eye on the needles to not overwater it and then suddenly it went from green to this in a few days.

Careful not overwatering during HEAT? Seems exactly backward. If free draining substrate should not be able to over water. High personal suspicion of under watering. Maybe still able to save tree with needed H2O.

 

[Potawatomi13]

a couple late unexpected freezes

Then again THIS may be cause. If sap has began to move freeze protection of tree is largely gone. Several conifers lost one year to a couple freezing nights in early growth season(April?).

 

[Paradox]

Yes, we've had a weird spring. It was a mild winter without too much freezing, but then a wet spring with a couple late unexpected freezes and other temperature swings.
If anything, that would be my guess. But does it explain the buds not showing any progress at all?

When where these freezes? How long were they and how cold did it get?
Was the tree outside on your bench when it happened?

 

[MaciekA]

When buds globally show no progress in pushing this far into the season it means there is a significant issue with the roots and inability to pull for water. It would be a mistake to assume this means it should be drowned in water now though, as it likely means there aren't that many functioning roots (functioning roots would mean both water availability and cytokinin production, which would motivate candles to extend and grow).

IMO @Wires_Guy_wires has the right idea in thinking this was a one-shot catastrophic event of some kind at some point. This tree is behaving as if had experienced a very late and rough repot in the last few weeks. If "last year" was late summer and "grew fine the season after" was autumn, then combined with the cold event, it would maybe yield a similar result.

Thoughts:

- Get air into the roots, callus needs air
- Surface clean and remove absolutely all organic stuff on the top of the soil -- moss, weeds, small particles, leftover fertilizer, bark bits, etc.
- Get a faster wet/dry cycle going for faster drying. Tip the pot on an angle permanently (except during watering ritual).
- Exercise precise attention in letting the tree dry out significantly between waterings. If there is moisture a couple centimeters below the surface, drop that hose! Do not add water.
- Avoid a "emergency repot" and instead focus on "emergency root growing" measures like rapid wet/dry cycle techniques.
- I don't know what your repotting skills or practices are and what last year's repot was like. But if it was a slip pot, stop doing slip pots on pines, and actually work the roots back when repotting them. And if it was indeed a slip pot and if there is a much older core of rootage in the middle, then go do a 30 minute immersion in a tub of water just in case there is a hydrophobic zone in the interior of the root ball.

TLDR: You need to get the soil to be drying out on a regular cycle. You need heat. Remove junk from the surface. The tree is more likely to be thirsty for lack of functioning drinking straws, not because the glass is empty. Regrowing those drinking straws requires air in the roots and heat in the environment. The fact that needles close to the shoot tips are browning basally is not a good sign.

 

[baron]

When where these freezes? How long were they and how cold did it get?
Was the tree outside on your bench when it happened?

Freezes were mild tho, like -3°C. Didn't go under. Lasted a couple of days at the most.
No, didn't offer any protection at the time because I assumed the trees could handle it. Never had any problems before.
Was also wet and rainy. Followed by spring with low temps and lots of rain.

 

[baron]

When buds globally show no progress in pushing this far into the season it means there is a significant issue with the roots and inability to pull for water. It would be a mistake to assume this means it should be drowned in water now though, as it likely means there aren't that many functioning roots (functioning roots would mean both water availability and cytokinin production, which would motivate candles to extend and grow).

IMO @Wires_Guy_wires has the right idea in thinking this was a one-shot catastrophic event of some kind at some point. This tree is behaving as if had experienced a very late and rough repot in the last few weeks. If "last year" was late summer and "grew fine the season after" was autumn, then combined with the cold event, it would maybe yield a similar result.

Thoughts:

- Get air into the roots, callus needs air
- Surface clean and remove absolutely all organic stuff on the top of the soil -- moss, weeds, small particles, leftover fertilizer, bark bits, etc.
- Get a faster wet/dry cycle going for faster drying. Tip the pot on an angle permanently (except during watering ritual).
- Exercise precise attention in letting the tree dry out significantly between waterings. If there is moisture a couple centimeters below the surface, drop that hose! Do not add water.
- Avoid a "emergency repot" and instead focus on "emergency root growing" measures like rapid wet/dry cycle techniques.
- I don't know what your repotting skills or practices are and what last year's repot was like. But if it was a slip pot, stop doing slip pots on pines, and actually work the roots back when repotting them. And if it was indeed a slip pot and if there is a much older core of rootage in the middle, then go do a 30 minute immersion in a tub of water just in case there is a hydrophobic zone in the interior of the root ball.

TLDR: You need to get the soil to be drying out on a regular cycle. You need heat. Remove junk from the surface. The tree is more likely to be thirsty for lack of functioning drinking straws, not because the glass is empty. Regrowing those drinking straws requires air in the roots and heat in the environment. The fact that needles close to the shoot tips are browning basally is not a good sign.

Nah, the repotting was done around april. Tree pushed new candles and everything was fine after.
I'm pretty sure I haven't been watering enough because of assumptions (red pines like drier mediums,..)

 

[baron]

Rootball was reduced during the repot, but not that drastic. Was already in good soil mixture.