regimented vs chaotic designs

[PaulH]

I think we're on the same page.

The point of my original post was to take issue with the implication that a naturalistic style is synonymous with a "chaotic" style. All of the rules and techniques we've spent years learning are needed and used to make a good natural looking bonsai. Art is most successful when the artifice is invisible.
We are still a long way from being able to be proud of "American Style Bonsai" as something unique. But I can see it happening. A key aspect, for me, of this American style is the use of natives in a natural (not chaotic) style. Just look at the Flat top Monterey cypresses of Kats Kinoshita, The wonderful, deadwood loaded redwoods many have made from trees collected by Mendocino Bonsai, The incredible, massive oaks by California artists like John Thompson or Gareth Shepherd. Few of these trees look like traditionally styled Japanese bonsai. But they've all got the "WOW!" effect.

 

[Vance Wood]

I think we're on the same page.

The point of my original post was to take issue with the implication that a naturalistic style is synonymous with a "chaotic" style. All of the rules and techniques we've spent years learning are needed and used to make a good natural looking bonsai. Art is most successful when the artifice is invisible.
We are still a long way from being able to be proud of "American Style Bonsai" as something unique. But I can see it happening. A key aspect, for me, of this American style is the use of natives in a natural (not chaotic) style. Just look at the Flat top Monterey cypresses of Kats Kinoshita, The wonderful, deadwood loaded redwoods many have made from trees collected by Mendocino Bonsai, The incredible, massive oaks by California artists like John Thompson or Gareth Shepherd. Few of these trees look like traditionally styled Japanese bonsai. But they've all got the "WOW!" effect.

I agree, we are on the same page. A style develops from artists who represent their ideas and visions of what a bonsai should look like, not an overt, often cynical attempt, to make a bonsai look different for difference's sake. This is where the WOW factor comes in; a successful bonsai does not foster questions about departures from the rules as many seem to judge a bonsai. A successful bonsai makes rules of its own. Where do you think the rules came from in the first place?

 

[Smoke]

A successful bonsai makes rules of its own. Where do you think the rules came from in the first place?

Unfortunately they came from Naka in the USA. While being a very good teacher and a gifted book writer, USA became stuck in a bonsai rut with "first branch, second branch, back branch" mentallity which has given us a whole plethora od American pine tree shaped maples and elms, as well as some pretty good pine tree shaped junipers, but strangly enough not many pine tree shaped pines....go figure.

 

[greerhw]

Unfortunately they came from Naka in the USA. While being a very good teacher and a gifted book writer, USA became stuck in a bonsai rut with "first branch, second branch, back branch" mentallity which has given us a whole plethora od American pine tree shaped maples and elms, as well as some pretty good pine tree shaped junipers, but strangly enough not many pine tree shaped pines....go figure.

The Chinese developed bonsai and the Japanese perfected it, why screw with something that is difficult, if not impossible to improve on. If you want to have something naturalistic, just plant some tree in a pot and leave it alone, nature will do the rest.

Harry

 

[Vance Wood]

The Chinese developed bonsai and the Japanese perfected it, why screw with something that is difficult, if not impossible to improve on. If you want to have something naturalistic, just plant some tree in a pot and leave it alone, nature will do the rest.

Harry

Yeah------that's true but of all of the trees you see in the wild how many would you like to represent as a bonsai? Really---, as good as Mom Nature is, she is also a pretty bad artist at times. She is capable of some really inspired and awsome work in the right environments made even more so when compared to some of her really boreing cookie cutter eye poker, nut droper home for things that go poo on your head.

 

[PaulH]

The Chinese developed bonsai and the Japanese perfected it, why screw with something that is difficult, if not impossible to improve on. If you want to have something naturalistic, just plant some tree in a pot and leave it alone, nature will do the rest.

Harry

Some people get it. Some people don't. Doesn't bother me.

 

[Smoke]

Some people get it. Some people don't. Doesn't bother me.

I'm willing to bet that Harry pays pretty good money to get "first branch, second branch, back branch"
trees from Marco.

 

[Smoke]

She is capable of some really inspired and awsome work in the right environments made even more so when compared to some of her really boreing cookie cutter eye poker, nut droper home for things that go poo on your head.

The master of the run-on sentence

 

[Attila Soos]

Unfortunately they came from Naka in the USA. While being a very good teacher and a gifted book writer, USA became stuck in a bonsai rut with "first branch, second branch, back branch" mentallity

Well, the rules are for the beginners. People should realize that. Experienced bonsaists don't need rules. I try to avoid a sling-shot branch not because the rule says so, but because it looks lame.

When I look at Naka's sketches of various finished bonsai, a great number of them look very creative and original. So, I don't blame Naka for a bad bonsai. I blame those who don't understand the true purpose of the rules.

 

[rosieface]

I am new to bonsai, but I have been "taught" various other arts/crafts in my life, and in all the arts, it is important to understand the traditional rules, so that once they are ingrained in your brain you have the ability to manipulate or even break those rules in dynamic and appealing ways.

This is true of music, painting, poetry, why not bonsai? I plan to try to stick with the 'first branch, second branch, back branch, etc' tradition with at least my first couple of trees, not because I feel like that's the ONLY way, but because I think that following strict rules will guide me to understanding what makes a good bonsai and what does not. Once I don't have to think about the rules anymore, who knows?

 

[Smoke]

Well, the rules are for the beginners. People should realize that. Experienced bonsaists don't need rules. I try to avoid a sling-shot branch not because the rule says so, but because it looks lame.

When I look at Naka's sketches of various finished bonsai, a great number of them look very creative and original. So, I don't blame Naka for a bad bonsai. I blame those who don't understand the true purpose of the rules.

I am not an artist. I can draw a fairly acceptable bonsai. I have seen others who can draw beautiful pictures of bonsai. Making beautiful bonsai from something not so beautiful is another matter.

Every tree has a first branch, and every tree has a second branch. Three dimensional trees have back branches. How they are arranged makes a big difference.

I did work with Naka a few times. What he drew and what he taught was two different things. Let's not confuse the two. What I meant above was what happened in America with that mentality. We are slowly moving away from it, but it has taken way too much time in my opinion. One can almost think of that old mentality as a spiral topiary continuing right to the top. Thats not very creative.

 

[grouper52]

For me personally, I understand both the tree and myself to be living, growing things. As such, we grow and evolve together. The growth IS the perfection.

For anyone interested in some related paragraphes from my books' chapter, "Becoming Picasso," here are some styling thoughts from Dan Robinson. Anyone turned off by my shameless plugs should read no further.

“So we are the sum total of what our visual images allow us to be. And if all we’ve ever seen is a forest of young trees, or a classic Japanese bonsai, then that’s it. Everything else is an anomaly. Most people only see what they recognize. And there’s comfort in that: we all do it to a degree. But it points to the importance of a broad palate of recalled images.”

and

“It’s a difficult thing, trying to teach certain people who want to analyze this art form down to some sort of formula which will lead to perfection. Perfection is always a state of mind, a
judgement formed on the basis of prior experiences: if it comes close to that, which I’ve seen before, it must be good. Well, maybe so, but that’s the antithesis of creativity, because creativity means something new. And so it isn’t very creative to make it be perfect by some scale that someone has articulated. What might be more perfect, if you’re more interested in the natural look of things, is that you’ve got something that no one has seen before, and yet it has a reasonableness about it in terms of the natural need to survive under these miniaturized conditions.”

Another time he said it a bit differently: “I prefer to err on the side of having . . . flaws! Now, in certain things, like repotting and wiring technique, I can get very picky, very meticulous, but . . . well, it’s like this dead branch here - the tree is supposed to be ‘better’ without it, but that’s kind of a rule. And so, to make it be a natural thing, it’s better to leave some of those things that are in error. Because nature does that. You know, we look at a bonsai from this perfectionistic ideal, but then they all look the same. To have it be a wild thing, you’ve got to keep some of those imperfections.”

and

“I put on a demo once in Philadelphia, working on a spruce, hollowing the trunk, bending the branches. During the question period, one guy got involved in a theoretical question about my philosophy, what I was doing, how it related to this or that art form. I just drew this huge blank, because when I try to explain what pushes me in some direction, it’s much less about some theoretical idea, and more about what I’m surrounded with and seeing in nature.

“When working on a tree, I’m not thinking about design concepts as much as I am about this little sprig here, and how I can get it in just the right proximal location to these branches, so that each has its space, its time in the light. I’m thinking how you don’t want it directly under another branch because then it will fail, and how you need a paucity of foliage, which allows the light in. Those are nature’s way, and this is what weighs heavily on me: how is this miniaturized tree going to work in the natural order of things?”

 

[Attila Soos]

The growth IS the perfection.

That's a great way to look at it. But perfection can happen at different levels - the micro-, as well as the macro-levels. And perfection in nature is not quite the same as perfection in bonsai, although there is substantial overlap, because the needs of the tree still must be met. Perfection in bonsai happens when the viewer is drawn into the tree, and his imagination is stimulated. Formulas lose their relevance in this realm.

I wish that Dan Robinson had just as much influence on the American Bonsai, as John Naka did. If that happened, the way we practice bonsai today would be very different.

So, you need to blame Dan for not working hard enough to spread his side of the story.
(Well, may be your book will help to rectify the situation to some extent...Btw, I really hope that the sales are doing all right, such a wonderful book.)

 

[Attila Soos]

Another time he said it a bit differently: “I prefer to err on the side of having . . . flaws!

I think flaws are very important, when it comes to great bonsai. (Interestingly, Naka said the same thing, over and over again. He always made fun of perfectly groomed, meticulous trees.) It's an ancient concept, the term "rustic" has similar overtones. In the Tea Ceremony, the objects with subtle flaws were the ones held in the highest esteem.

This line of thinking ties to the title of this thread - Regimented vs. Chaotic designs. Finding the balance between the artificial and the chaos is probably the most important challenge, when designing a bonsai. Both extremes are bad, the goal is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Jessf]

I think flaws are very important, when it comes to great bonsai. (Interestingly, Naka said the same thing, over and over again. He always made fun of perfectly groomed, meticulous trees.) It's an ancient concept, the term "rustic" has similar overtones. In the Tea Ceremony, the objects with subtle flaws were the ones held in the highest esteem.

This line of thinking ties to the title of this thread - Regimented vs. Chaotic designs. Finding the balance between the artificial and the chaos is probably the most important challenge, when designing a bonsai. Both extremes are bad, the goal is somewhere in the middle.

makes sense. But if everyone finds the happy medium then we're all driving Mini Vans. I like seeing a hot little BMW once in a while, at the same time I like seeing a clunky 20 year old Kei truck puttering around. Polar opposites are interesting. If we go back to my original post where I commented on what I perceived to be a majority leaning towards a more regimented design, the opinions that followed don't seem to corroborate that observation, at least not of those put forth on the thread. What people say and what people do can be two very different things but ultimately I wanted to see who's thinking what and why.

 

[rockm]

"makes sense. But if everyone finds the happy medium then we're all driving Mini Vans"

It's not a happy medium that we all somehow sink or rise to. Since bonsai is as individual as the bonsaist AND the particular tree they're working on, the results are endless and hardly uniform. To add to the complexity, some people are vastly better at doing bonsai than others, which really pi$#es those of us with very little talent off...

You're not really reading between the lines. There is no "regimented" vs "natural" bonsai design. Some folks would argue that "regimented natural" design might fill the bill. Bonsai design requires some order. A tree can't simply be plunked into a container and be called "bonsai." It has to be interpreted in some manner by the bonsaiist. The tree must ultimately speak not only to the individual bonsaiist but to others (I know some will have tantrums over that). The equation of nebari, trunk and branches that add up to that tree is complicated has endless variation.

In any case, bonsai is not really about trees. It is about people and their relationship and interpretation of nature...

 

[Attila Soos]

In any case, bonsai is not really about trees. It is about people and their relationship and interpretation of nature...

That's what my cousin said, and then he was surprised that every bonsai under his care died within 3 months.

He kept focusing on people and ignoring the trees..

 

[Smoke]

That's what my cousin said, and then he was surprised that every bonsai under his care died within 3 months.

He kept focusing on people and ignoring the trees..

Oh it's about people alright.....

Does anyone actually think that bonsai can't be done without the internet?

While I was a trustee of GSBF I was privy to all kinds of information about how bonsai has progressed in the last few decades. When GSBF started in 1978, the sole purpose of the federation was to organize a yearly convention to
1. create awareness of the hobby
2. Have a place each year for people to meet and reaquaint
3. to showcase some trees each year.

Since 1978 the reasons have not changed much. What did change was that the yearly conventions were also a place to buy goods and learn aspects of bonsai creation. This helped sell more convention packages and helped raise more money for GSBF so it could have its two permanent collections of legacy trees.

What has happened is that GSBF has lost the social function of it's base. I can look back at Golden Statements magazine in the 80's and the photo's are of predominately Japanese people. That is to say that for the asian community, the yearly convention was not so much about bonsai business as it was about comraderie and meeting old friends and making new ones. They all had a one thing in common, Bonsai.

GSBF has had to make many changes to keep the organization alive. It now gears it's workshops around Sat. and Sunday. Why did they do this? Cause working people did not come to the convention for 4 days. They came on Sat. and they wanted to do a workshop that traditionaly had been done on Thur. and Fri. in the past.

The internet has removed the need to actually go to a convention for the social part. We can get that right here. Show a tree, look at Al's pics from the convention, call me a liar, tell me my politics sucks, tel me my trees suck.

the point is we all need validation. We don't care how we get it or if it even pertains to the tree, we just need the interaction. Why does this web site do so well? cause people are here all day and interact. Many web sites out there have good stuff but no ones there. You make a post and it may be weeks before anyone even posts a reply if then.

You don't stay at a forum with no people, you stay at a forum cause it feeds your inner need for social exchange. People don't fall from bonsai cause they get frustrated or fail at making trees, they fall away from bonsai cause they don't have anyone to share it with. Bonsai it not very satisfying without someone to give you some feedback, good or bad. I can think of only one thing I do by myself that errr...nevermind. No one ever complains either!

 

[Jessf]

"makes sense. But if everyone finds the happy medium then we're all driving Mini Vans"

It's not a happy medium that we all somehow sink or rise to. Since bonsai is as individual as the bonsaist AND the particular tree they're working on, the results are endless and hardly uniform. To add to the complexity, some people are vastly better at doing bonsai than others, which really pi$#es those of us with very little talent off...

You're not really reading between the lines. There is no "regimented" vs "natural" bonsai design. Some folks would argue that "regimented natural" design might fill the bill. Bonsai design requires some order. A tree can't simply be plunked into a container and be called "bonsai." It has to be interpreted in some manner by the bonsaiist. The tree must ultimately speak not only to the individual bonsaiist but to others (I know some will have tantrums over that). The equation of nebari, trunk and branches that add up to that tree is complicated has endless variation.

In any case, bonsai is not really about trees. It is about people and their relationship and interpretation of nature...

I don't think you're reading my posts completly.

 

[Attila Soos]

You don't stay at a forum with no people, you stay at a forum cause it feeds your inner need for social exchange. People don't fall from bonsai cause they get frustrated or fail at making trees, they fall away from bonsai cause they don't have anyone to share it with. Bonsai it not very satisfying without someone to give you some feedback, good or bad.

I am sure that this is true for a lot of people, but not for everybody. I would do bonsai just as much if I ended up alone on a tropical island. In fact, I often find it too much of a hassle to give the garden tour to our visitors - although my wife keeps sending them to see my trees. Too many questions....But occasionally, I must admit that it boosts my ego, if the situation is right.
It must be the same with all art forms. A painter would create paintings just for the joy of doing it. Sharing it with others is a bonus - or a matter of paying the bills.