regimented vs chaotic designs

mat

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I think that artist every thinks, somewhere in his creative process, about how someone else will perceive his work. hether it's curt cobain arguing with himself on the topic (to his death), david copperfield relishing in it, or me staring at a ficus clump in my backyard.

It's reasonable that we would still perform this hobby/art on a desert island, but while we're not, I think most of us at least consider the impressions and opinions of others while choose to prune and bend.
 

grouper52

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Interesting points, Al, Atilla and others.

I know I practiced bonsai all by my lonesome for about six years before I found an internet forum, and first showed my trees to others. The hobby then became a whole different animal for me, some things gained, some things lost, not entirely better nor worse, but certainly different. I toy with the idea of just retreating back to it as a solo hobby, but I keep coming back to share my trees.

And another quote from that chapter, one that addresses the point jessf and others have touched on:

"Despite his admiration for natural bonsai, however, Dan has never advocated the slavish copying of nature either: the material an artist starts with may make an abstract design more appropriate or enjoyable. He also emphasized the more practical, horticultural aspects of design, and their need to trump any ideas based on artistic theories alone, even naturalistic ones."

Another point touched on here, one that has been much on my mind lately, is the relationship, the felt connection, we have with our trees. I find it unique to slowly build a relationship with a "life form," a living being, sentient in the classic sense or not, that is so different from the human. I don't think this has a parallel anywhere else, and I am fascinated by it.
 

rockm

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"I don't think you're reading my posts completly."

Yeah, I think I am. I think the question you've asked cannot be broken down into such either-or arguments for "chaotic" or "regimented" designs. You're hung up on technique, not approach.

By its very nature, bonsai is a regimented approach to chaos. Nature is chaos. Trees in nature are chaotic. There is no "thought" in their visual appearance. They are what they are. People doing bonsai seek to pull meaning (conciously or not) out of a plant when arranging a bonsai. They use artistic elements they believe makes a bush or tree look more "treelike" to humans.
 

Jessf

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"I don't think you're reading my posts completly."

Yeah, I think I am. I think the question you've asked cannot be broken down into such either-or arguments for "chaotic" or "regimented" designs. You're hung up on technique, not approach.

By its very nature, bonsai is a regimented approach to chaos. Nature is chaos. Trees in nature are chaotic. There is no "thought" in their visual appearance. They are what they are. People doing bonsai seek to pull meaning (conciously or not) out of a plant when arranging a bonsai. They use artistic elements they believe makes a bush or tree look more "treelike" to humans.

I'm not hung up on anything. I'm asking questions based on things I've observed. You have repeatedly alluded to bonsai being what the grower wants it to be, then turned around and used terms like "bonsai is NOT this, and it is NOT that".

I've never stated what bonsai is, but commented on what I've observed and asked questions in turn. I've also clearly stated how I'd like to proceed as an individual. Instead of asking me what I meant by natural and chaotic you've made assumptions and responded in an arrogant way.

throw your weight around the bridge table if it makes you feel good inside.
 
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Attila Soos

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Curious to know how many people consider the bonsai process as a means to a final design that is then maintained from then on, or if people regularly restyle and rethink their trees. I ask because a lot of what I've been reading online and in books seems to lean towards designing a tree, growing the tree into that design, then maintaining that design. I've seen many great photos of bonsai that look like "bonsai" and not enough like the full sized tree in miniature.

Getting back to your original question, here are a few more thoughts to consider.

Bonsai, is a work of art, that is (theoretically) meant to last for generations. Its life span far exceeds human life. So, one has to assume, that more than one person will work on it. This is why following a structured approach makes sense. Just imagine what would happen, if every apprentice and student would try to impose his/her individual ideas, whenever the tree was worked on. The bonsai would become a mess, and no particular design would take hold.
Having said that, there are times when a major overhaul in the design is warranted, when the tree was neglected for a long time.

One also has to consider the importance of proportions between the size of the trunk and branches. A pine tree, and many other conifers do not back-bud from old wood (same with certain broad-leaved species). The implication of this fact is, that if these proportions are not carefully preserved by a systematic maintenance schedule, the tree can be ruined forever, with no chance of restoring the original balance.

These are just a few reasons why a systematic approach to bonsai maintenace is inevitable, and as a result, the chaotic and spontaneous structures that one can see in nature are difficult to achieve, over the long period of the bonsai's life.

It is very easy to be spontaneous and casual, when we are in the process of developing the initial design of a new tree. But once the final design is achieved, and the design needs to be maintained, that is a different ball-game alltogether. One also needs to consider the size of a bonsai collection. If you have 50 old trees in your collection (or it can be much larger), spontaneously changing the design all the time would be highly impractical. However, it is a good idea to periodically re-evaluate the design of each tree, and make some improvements on them. Over time, trees inevitably change, and they can out-grow their current structure.

We tend to criticise the systematic approach that the Japanese developed towards bonsai. But this approach made it possible to maintain a bonsai for hundreds of years, through many generations. It is the only way that this can be done, on such a large scale.
When you have a complex task to perform, you can do it spontaneously, or you can have a plan. If you have to do it a thousand times, you better have a plan.
 
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rockm

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Wow. Talk about making assumptions...What's with the chip on the shoulder?

Your assumptions about me are pretty arrogant themselves... You asked a difficult question. I tried to show there isn't really an answer. That you took such offense to the explanation says a lot, unfortunately.

If you read what I wrote without making the assumption I was trying to be arrogant, you might feel differently.
 

Attila Soos

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If you read what I wrote without making the assumption I was trying to be arrogant, you might feel differently.

Yep, you should know Rockm better, than to assume that he is arrogant. Just straightforward, which should be appreciated. Few people here are as helpful as Rockm.

But this is the problem of the written word. It lends itself to assumptions.
 

Jessf

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Wow. Talk about making assumptions...What's with the chip on the shoulder?

Your assumptions about me are pretty arrogant themselves... You asked a difficult question. I tried to show there isn't really an answer. That you took such offense to the explanation says a lot, unfortunately.

If you read what I wrote without making the assumption I was trying to be arrogant, you might feel differently.

no, I asked an open ended question about people's "opinion" and shared my own. I'm not looking for "the answer". I acknowledged the existence of there being no real answer in my initial post, I wanted to see what people thought. This spawned my initial "you're not reading my posts completely" which was a frank observation. You then accused me of being "hung up" on a question I never asked.
 
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Personally, I'm tired of this thread, but I thought I would post again, cause 3 or 4 pages have gone by since my last one...(ha,ha)
not to be mean, but it's seems to be alot of back and forth about nothing... so either you like a more natural looking tree, or you don't... who cares??? Oh, and then there's the "chaotic thing".
In my opinion, This whole discussion probally would of be better posted in the "karroke section", cause it's like arguing politics... not everyone is going to agree with one another, and if we did we would pretty much all own the same looking tree.
Perhaps to much time is spent defining what makes a good tree, and not enough time is spent making one???
 

rockm

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"You then accused me of being "hung up" on a question I never asked"

Again, wow. I didn't mean it as an "accusation," I meant it as a figure of conversational speech :rolleyes:. Jeez, lighten up Francis...

As for not asking a question--
"How many see the art/hobby as a regimented practice of "perfecting" a design and maintaining it and how many view the process with a more naturalistic chaotic approach. I can't imagine many snapping the branches carelessly off an old and prized tree in an effort to simulate a natural wound. Maybe people do and I just haven’t come across it yet."

Although there is no question mark in the first sentence, it is a question...??
 

Attila Soos

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oh, I was only joking... ha,ha

I know.
By the way, arguing about bonsai and various approaches to it, is the whole point of joining a bonsai forum. That's what we are here for. There is nothing more fascinating than the way different people approach bonsai in different ways. And I am glad that we disagree, since if we agreed on that, there would be no reason to discuss it.

On the other hand, arguing about politics and abortion rights, that's NOT what I do on a bonsai forum. So, that can stay in the karaoke bar.
 
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