Reverse feeding pines low nitrogen fert (Colin Lewis)

[KennedyMarx]

http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/0-10-10.html

I was just reading that link on Colin Lewis's page about "reverse feeding" pines. Basically using nitrogen free fertilizers in the spring and summer. Does anyone have any experience with this? I have a few little pine saplings that I got from a friend for growing out (inspired by Eric's pine from seed post). So I am years away from worrying about refinement. It's something I'm trying to learn in the meantime. I have Brian Van Fleet's pine book pdf that I've been reading.

 

[Q-Bonsai]

I talked to Peter Tea during a workshop about pine health. He says to use a balanced fertilizer (10-10-10, 30-30-30, etc).... This will ensure the tree is well balanced in its health. To manipulate needle length, one should adjust the quantity of fertilizer applied.

 

[jk_lewis]

Well! Two extremely competent bonsiests and two totally different answers.

That should tell you something about the "art" of fertilizing.

 

[StarTurtle]

I talked to Peter Tea during a workshop about pine health. He says to use a balanced fertilizer (10-10-10, 30-30-30, etc).... This will ensure the tree is well balanced in its health. To manipulate needle length, one should adjust the quantity of fertilizer applied.

Peter Tea recommends a 5-5-5 balanced fert for JBP when I talked to him on 9-6-14. You can use a 10-10-10 at half strength to get the 5-5-5.

 

[StarTurtle]

http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/0-10-10.html

I was just reading that link on Colin Lewis's page about "reverse feeding" pines. Basically using nitrogen free fertilizers in the spring and summer. Does anyone have any experience with this? I have a few little pine saplings that I got from a friend for growing out (inspired by Eric's pine from seed post). So I am years away from worrying about refinement. It's something I'm trying to learn in the meantime. I have Brian Van Fleet's pine book pdf that I've been reading.

I wouldnt use this technique on saplings as you wont vigorous growth during this phase. Also note it is not for all Pines

"However, it would be counter-productive on Japanese black pine, where early season vigor is critical to inducing the shorter-needled second flush."

I would be interested to see how this would work on a Ponderosa, need to give it a try.

 

[yenling83]

Some very important things to note which Collin does mention: This is only a technique used on 1 flush growth pines like White and Ponderosa Pine. This would be a great way to kill or make 2 flush growth pines like Black or Monterey very weak if you wanted to decandle.

It's pretty common across the board that nitrogen is withheld from 1 flush growth pines until late in the season to reduce needle size on mature trees. Where it may differ is that Collin uses P and K on 1 flush pines early in the growing season, while more traditionally no fertilizer is given to these pines earlier in the season. Also like Star Turtle mentioned if you want to thicken anything withholding fertilizer is not the way to go which is the same with decandling.

 

[jkd2572]

I have a Friend and he only fertilizes establishes ponderosa from sept through December. Says it helps keep the needle length smaller. His trees are so healthy he has some ponderosa sending out a 2nd flush this year. No kidding. I think it's a combo of great horticulture and our long growing season. When he first collects them he feeds them year round to get them strong for two years. Feeds them boons mix of organic fert in tea bags.

 

[yenling83]

I have a Friend and he only fertilizes establishes ponderosa from sept through December. Says it helps keep the needle length smaller. His trees are so healthy he has some ponderosa sending out a 2nd flush this year. No kidding. I think it's a combo of great horticulture and our long growing season. When he first collects them he feeds them year round to get them strong for two years. Feeds them boons mix of organic fert in tea bags.

Sounds like a smart dude

 

[Q-Bonsai]

Peter Tea recommends a 5-5-5 balanced fert for JBP when I talked to him on 9-6-14. You can use a 10-10-10 at half strength to get the 5-5-5.

Sure, that's why I said balanced... I simply gave examples. What he did say though, is that 5-5-5 works for him in his region and may be different for others as long as it's balanced.

 

[markyscott]

http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/0-10-10.html

I was just reading that link on Colin Lewis's page about "reverse feeding" pines. Basically using nitrogen free fertilizers in the spring and summer. Does anyone have any experience with this? I have a few little pine saplings that I got from a friend for growing out (inspired by Eric's pine from seed post). So I am years away from worrying about refinement. It's something I'm trying to learn in the meantime. I have Brian Van Fleet's pine book pdf that I've been reading.

It's an interesting article. For refined black pine bonsai, most that I've worked with teach us to fertilize in the spring to prepare the tree for candle cutting and then withhold all fertilizer until the summer shoots have hardened off. After that, fertilization resumes to feed any back budding that may have occurred and to prepare the tree for dormancy. Based on my read of his article, it seems as though Colin might teach us to fertilize (but withhold nitrogen) as the summer shoots extend on two flush pines and as the spring candles extend on single flush pines. The big difference seems to be whether you withhold all fertilizer, or just withhold nitrogen.

If you're growing out, of course, the goal is to promote vigorous sacrifice branch growth and all of this is moot. You're challenge there is to keep the interior growth healthy.

Scott

 

[Eric Group]

Peter Tea recommends a 5-5-5 balanced fert for JBP when I talked to him on 9-6-14. You can use a 10-10-10 at half strength to get the 5-5-5.

10-4 on 10-10-10 at 1/2 to get 5-5-5 as of 9-6-14- could you 20-20-20 at 1/4 to get 5-5-5 2?

 

[Eric Schrader]

http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/0-10-10.html

I was just reading that link on Colin Lewis's page about "reverse feeding" pines. Basically using nitrogen free fertilizers in the spring and summer. Does anyone have any experience with this? I have a few little pine saplings that I got from a friend for growing out (inspired by Eric's pine from seed post). So I am years away from worrying about refinement. It's something I'm trying to learn in the meantime. I have Brian Van Fleet's pine book pdf that I've been reading.

I think Jeremiah hit it squarely - and Colin mentions it in this article that you reference:

1-flush pines: withhold all fertilizer or use 0-10-10 in spring and for at least the first half of summer to reduce needle length and control vigor - and - only if the tree is in refinement and is already healthy. Take into account the species, but this does work on white pine and ponderosa in my experience.

2-flush pines: use a lot of fertilizer all the time. Boon says take 6 weeks off after decandling, but this depends on climate and health of the tree. I'm in a cool summer climate (65 degrees average high) so I fertilize straight through. This applies to black pine among others, but I only have experience with black, red and monterey specifically.

And whenever you're growing from seed your primary concern is bulking the trunk and establishing a few branches to be used later. Holding back on fert's on stock growing is counter-productive, you need the nitrogen to drive the large growth that will fatten the trunk.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

I have a Friend and he only fertilizes establishes ponderosa from sept through December. Says it helps keep the needle length smaller. His trees are so healthy he has some ponderosa sending out a 2nd flush this year. No kidding. I think it's a combo of great horticulture and our long growing season. When he first collects them he feeds them year round to get them strong for two years. Feeds them boons mix of organic fert in tea bags.

Would reducing needle length through fertilizer deprivation also reduce new buds in spring?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Withholding fertilizer for the entire year will reduce buds the following spring. Applying fertilizer only in autumn provides nutrients at the time new buds form. Buds form late summer & early autumn. Fertilizer at this time, allows good bud formation. Withholding fertilizer the rest of the year keeps needles and internodes shorter.

 

[Bnana]

Fertilizer with 10-10-10 NPK is as balanced as a diet consisting of 100 g protein, 100 g starch, 100 g vit. C and 100 g salt.

But limiting N availability will reduce growth and result in smaller leaves/needles in many plantspecies. Most plants are adapted to N-limitation and can deal with this easily.

 

[Shibui]

Fertilizer with 10-10-10 NPK is as balanced as a diet consisting of 100 g protein, 100 g starch, 100 g vit. C and 100 g salt.

Absolutely!
'Balanced' in reference to fertilizer actually means the fertilizer has some of all the macro nutrients rather than equal amounts. The term was introduced to differentiate the old single element fertilizers like Potassium sulphate, urea, bone meal, etc which only supply one element from the newer ferts which had all elements in a single product. Balanced does not mean equal when it comes to fertilizer
Plants use NPK in different ratios so applying equal % of each is crazy. Much is just wasted because the plants just can't use all the P and K. Not only are they wasted but excess nutrients end up in streams and ground water and cause many problems.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Fertilizer with 10-10-10 NPK is as balanced as a diet consisting of 100 g protein, 100 g starch, 100 g vit. C and 100 g salt.

But limiting N availability will reduce growth and result in smaller leaves/needles in many plantspecies. Most plants are adapted to N-limitation and can deal with this easily.

One of my favorite rave outs.

Balanced to the needs of the plant would be roughly 12-1-4