Reverse Sap Flow?

thumblessprimate1

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Something interesting I observed on a Japanese black pine approach graft. I left a stub after the graft set. The stub is pointing slightly up. Could that be important for what is happening in the next image?

DSC05359.jpg

The stub wound is closing up. I'm curious if there were needles on the stub side, it might be possible for it to grow buds there.

DSC05360.jpg
 

0soyoung

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I'm curious if there were needles on the stub side, it might be possible for it to grow buds there.
Yes. This is would be equivalent to pruning part of a candle with hardened needles. The collapse of the auxin flow passing by the remaining needles can release fascicular buds (at the base of needle clusters) and sometimes (depending on species) epicormic buds (where there are no longer any needles).
 

0soyoung

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My prior response was incorrect in the context of this approach graft :oops:.
Yes. This is would be equivalent to pruning part of a candle with hardened needles. The collapse of the auxin flow passing by the remaining needles can release fascicular buds (at the base of needle clusters) and sometimes (depending on species) epicormic buds (where there are no longer any needles).
The stub end of this approach graft would not experience any auxin flow collapse as a result of severing the scion, so budding would not be induced.
Auxin always flows toward the roots, so a 'collapse in the auxin flow' is also in the direction toward the roots. This directional bias has been build into the tissues since it was a seed embryo and is generally so difficult to reverse as to be impossible to change.
 
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Some years ago i've read an article on the net. A japanese master taking old mature branches of a mediocre acer, and placing it on more promising material. He uses a tread graft (young plant is pulled trough the branch) aprox 1 inch (2cm) next to the place he wants to start the branch. After the plant takes he just cut of the branch and places it on the other bonsai. Is reverse sap flow too i guess. ps. Difficult to explain without photos, but i guess others will know what i mean?
 

thumblessprimate1

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Some years ago i've read an article on the net. A japanese master taking old mature branches of a mediocre acer, and placing it on more promising material. He uses a tread graft (young plant is pulled trough the branch) aprox 1 inch (2cm) next to the place he wants to start the branch. After the plant takes he just cut of the branch and places it on the other bonsai. Is reverse sap flow too i guess. ps. Difficult to explain without photos, but i guess others will know what i mean?

I think I read the same article.
My prior response was incorrect in the context of this approach graft :oops:.

The stub end of this approach graft would not experience any auxin flow collapse as a result of severing the scion, so budding would not be induced.
Auxin always flows toward the roots, so a 'collapse in the auxin flow' is also in the direction toward the roots. This directional bias has been build into the tissues since it was a seed embryo and is generally so difficult to reverse as to be impossible to change.

I have another approach graft going on the same pine. I'll make the separation in a year or two leaving some little branches on the stub end just to see what will happen.
 

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that's pretty interesting, and to totally hijack can approach graft be done a little later then early spring- I would like to do one now but didn't realize I wanted to do one till now?
 

thumblessprimate1

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that's pretty interesting, and to totally hijack can approach graft be done a little later then early spring- I would like to do one now but didn't realize I wanted to do one till now?
Should be able to set up an approach graft anytime.
 

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Pretty cool. So I think I finally got how the "Ebihara" technique of grafting to move branches around works. I had an idea before but now I think I can actually do the whole process if I ever wanted to.

Using my graft above as a starting point, I'd simply drill a hole for just enough space into the target zone of that other tree. Then plug the stub that's left on the branch that had just been grafted into that new hole, but before that scrape the edge around the hole and the bark off the portion of stub to be inserted. I just came across some nice step by step photos on from a person named Andrea Meriggioli. http://hiryuen.com/forum/showthread.php?p=142753#post142753

Update: (I could post photo later) the stub that's closing up in my photo is swollen now. I can see the possibilities of this grafting method. Simply brilliant, stuff.
 

thumblessprimate1

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Some years ago i've read an article on the net. A japanese master taking old mature branches of a mediocre acer, and placing it on more promising material. He uses a tread graft (young plant is pulled trough the branch) aprox 1 inch (2cm) next to the place he wants to start the branch. After the plant takes he just cut of the branch and places it on the other bonsai. Is reverse sap flow too i guess. ps. Difficult to explain without photos, but i guess others will know what i mean?
Just reread this. Didn't register perfectly the first time. :p
 
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no i just need to find nice and mature branches on other bonsai to place them on mine...
 
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Is this not just normal sap flow? It's just the stub closing over the wound as it would if you cut it and placed it in water or another growing medium. The new parent tree is simply allowing the grafted branch to maintain vigor because of its union. Ongoing sap-flow......perhaps a better term?
 

Jester217300

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Is this not just normal sap flow? It's just the stub closing over the wound as it would if you cut it and placed it in water or another growing medium. The new parent tree is simply allowing the grafted branch to maintain vigor because of its union. Ongoing sap-flow......perhaps a better term?

In general pines don't support branches without foliage. Most people would have expected sap to flow from the trunk to the scion and NOT from the trunk to the stump. The stump would usually die. Because this tree kept it alive and healed the stump the sap flow could be considered the reverse of what is normal.
 
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In general pines don't support branches without foliage. Most people would have expected sap to flow from the trunk to the scion and NOT from the trunk to the stump. The stump would usually die. Because this tree kept it alive and healed the stump the sap flow could be considered the reverse of what is normal.
Sure, but imagine there was no parent plant here and that this was just a cutting. Then what we see here is what you would get baring the eventual formation of roots. What happens with a cutting? Well, as I understand it, we take the cutting, place it in a medium in which the cutting can still receive moisture through the inside section of the cut tissue. The plant then uses a combo of stored energy and new energy created from existing leaves to generate first scar tissue, but then roots at the cut site. As I see it, this is what is happening here. The vascular flow is the same as that in a cutting, but the source of moisture is the new parent tree as opposed to a growing medium of some sort. The cutting is probably sending some sap into the parent plant as well, but the sap lines in the scion remain strong enough to keep the original flow active. Could it be that this is because the approach graft is not yet strong enough for the cutting to "decide" to divert it's full return sap flow back into the new host tree? I'm no plant physiologist, but that kinda makes sense to me. Essentially using your wording above, the sap is flowing from the trunk to the scion to the stump, not from the trunk to the stump. Sounds plausible to me. Interesting all the same.
 
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I guess it's correct that it is scar tissue as a cutting would do. The foliage (or needles in this case) would be dead by now if there was no graft. Just another tool in the mental toolbox.
 

Giga

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That's pretty cool, but it also could help that pine sap flows left n right as well as up n down, most anyway mugo are juniper like.
 

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What 'sap' are you talking about?
  • Is it the water and minerals drawn from the roots through the xylem (wood) by the foliage?
    • Xylem is just a series of tubes, a whole bunch in parallel. These tubes have no polarity - they are just interconnected pipes.
  • Is it the photosynthate from the foliage that flows away from the foliage in the phloem (inner bark)?
    • Phloem is just a series of tubes, many in parallel. These tubes have no polarity - they are just interconnected pipes.
 
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Tubes? I'm not convinced of that. Either way, by sap flow I refer to both. What I'm suggesting is that the cutting retains its turgor pressure as a result of sap flow from the host tree, and that the calousing in the stub is as a result of sap flow originating from the needles.
 

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What I'm suggesting is that the cutting retains its turgor pressure as a result of sap flow from the host tree, and that the calousing in the stub is as a result of sap flow originating from the needles.
agree
 
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