Reverse taper bad?

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I have been interested in bonsai for many years but never took the step to actually buy one until a couple months ago I saw a Brazilian rain tree on Kijiji. Did a small amount of research on it and fell in love. I’ve had it for over a month now and everything is good. Almost drowned it when I first got it because I thought the soil was to be completely soaked until it drained out the bottom screen hole... but recently I’ve noticed the term “reverse taper” going around and how to fix it. Originally I thought it was the roots growing up instead of down but have learned that it’s just a trunk that gets bigger as it goes up. I’m just wondering, what’s so bad about it? All I can find is that it “breaks the rules”. 5AD6E094-ADD5-4761-B556-BC74B87B713D.jpeg
 

Atom#28

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My newbie knowledge is limited, but here's my take:

When we bonsai a tree, we often want it to look like a really old, exaggerated version of a tree you might see in nature. To achieve that effect, (for most styles) a big fat base that tapers to a thin top gives a sense of proportion to the tree. The viewer's eye can be tricked, essentially, to believe the tree is much bigger than it really is.

Reverse taper, in that sense, tends to work against our endeavors to present the image of a mature tree.
 
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Ok so it’s only bad for design but not for the health of a tree. Also somewhere it said it will cause the tree to dwarf but that didn’t make much sense because bonsai trees are technically already dwarf trees
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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bonsai trees are technically already dwarf trees
I see dwarf trees as genetic deviations; plants that can't grow bigger because their genetic code prevents that.
If you plant a bonsai in the yard, it'll grow up to a big tree.
I think we should see bonsai as dwarfed (as in manipulated to stay tiny) as opposed to being trees with dwarfism.

A good example of the difference is the regular alberta spruce and dwarf alberta spruce.
 

Shibui

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Reverse taper is no problem for the tree. It is just n aesthetic problem. When we see an old tree we expect it to be thickest at the bottom and get thinner as we go up the tree. if we view a bonsai with reverse taper our subconscious brain refuses to believe that it is an old tree so e don't see it as good bonsai.
Trees with reverse taper are still bonsai (some purists would disagree) just not very good bonsai.
 

WNC Bonsai

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With Brazilian Rain Trees (BRT) reverse taper is easy to get and hard to rememdy. Basically they grow rapidly and will thicken well even in a pot but you have to maintain foliage low on the trunk to prevent reverse taper. Basically the girth of the tree expands quickly if there is a branch nearby, cut one off and the trunk in that area will not thicken as fast as other parts of the trunk. These lower branches are referred to as sacrifice branches since they are kept just to help thicken the trunk and then cut off later once you have reached the desired girth. It is a tricky balancing act to keep the trunk thickening at an even pace all the way to the ground.
 
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I was watching a YouTube video about styling the brt and he emphasized the point that you don’t want three way splits, always 2 like a Y. I was lucky enough to have a branch start right at the bottom of the trunkC861C949-8FD2-4797-B8AC-970370E4B7D5.jpeg
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Inverse taper = reverse taper - either name is acceptable.

This is a design problem only, no effect on health of a tree. Initially it is not an every day use concept. When those new to bonsai get to the point where they understand the term, often they "fixate" on it, and see inverse taper everywhere. Frequently they view it as a "fatal flaw" that any tree showing any signs of inverse taper is not worthy of being call bonsai and must be immediately relegated to the compost pile. This is completely wrong.

Yes, inverse taper is a design issue. Yes, at a top level exhibition, like the USA National Show in Rochester, a tree of one of the commonly used varieties of trees with strong inverse taper will be rejected from exhibition. But many of the unusual varieties of trees, cork bark pines, natural pachycauls, inverse taper will be overlooked by the judges if it is a normal pattern for the tree in nature or the nature of the cultivar, as in cork bark pines.

In any tree where your description includes "allow the trunk to increase in diameter" - inverse taper is a trivial problem. Inverse taper can be remedied by controlling grow. By allowing branches below the zone of inverse taper to grow rapidly, and by limiting the growth of branches above the inverse taper, one can usually eliminate mild and moderate zones of inverse taper in a matter of 2 to 5 years.

Some trees, such as Brazilian rain tree, develop wide flattened zones in their trunks, they also develop fluting. These flattened zones when viewed from one side might appear as reverse taper, and from 90 degrees to one side might appear as normal narrowing of the trunk. This is normal for Brazilian rain tree and is not viewed as a flaw.

@BrazilianMoistWood - Your inverse taper is caused by the large branch that was removed, now that you have only a small branch remaining on that first branch, the main trunk will grow faster, in just a few years the trunk will be enough larger in diameter that the short first branch will no longer be larger in diameter than the trunk. This will "fix itself" the way you have it set up.

Sometimes pruning is the best way to eliminate a branch whose diameter has become larger than the diameter of the trunk. In design, a general principal, or guideline is that branches in general should be less than 50% of the diameter of the trunk it is coming from. Branches that are over 75% the diameter of the trunk, begin to create the image of a shrub, rather than a tree. Now this is not an absolute rule, and there is the gray area whether a "branch" is really a Branch or is it a "sub-trunk". If it is a sub-trunk it is acceptable to be close to the same diameter as the main trunk. But frequently, especially with deciduous trees that back bud easily, once the young tree has achieved the desired trunk diameter, most if not all branches are removed and replaced to new, small diameter branches. @BrazilianMoistWood at some point in the future, you might just want to remove that fat stub of a branch flush with the trunk and start over with a new back bud low on the trunk to make your first branch.

So in summary, inverse taper is a design issue. If the description of the tree includes "increasing the trunk diameter" then inverse taper is a relatively easy issue to correct. Don't panic, it is not a "fatal flaw", you can, by controlling growth, fix the problem.
 
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@Leo in N E Illinois

I didn’t notice the reverse/inverse taper on my tree since it was close to the same size. I was debating cutting that branch off anyways because of the dieback and large cuts made before I got it. I can’t seem to get the tip of that branch to grow either hence the wire on the small chute right below it. Now if I cut it at the main trunk and leave a little stub for dieback, can I later file it back closer to the tree to get a smoother look instead of the bulge that may stay behind?
 

Shibui

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Most trees are apical dominant. That just means the top grows faster and better than lower parts. You can see why when you recognise that a tree wants to be the tallest in the forest to out compete any others so most resources go into making the top grow fast and less resources into the lower branches which will usually die off as the tree grows taller.
In bonsai we want the lower branches to thrive (against the natural inclination of the tree) so we need to intervene to convince the tree to reallocate resources. Pruning the top changes the flow of auxins and will help lower branches grow better. While you allow the top to grow those lower branches will stay small and grow less.

The ugly pruning scar should be cut back a lot more to remove the bulge. You usually need to cut a little more than the final size to allow for the callus to heal over the cut. Being a low branch that could take quite awhile to heal fully because there is little sap flow there. If it does not heal well you can go to the fallback of removing the entire branch.
Leaving a stub can reduce dieback of nearby trunk. After the tree gets a chance to change sap flow around the site the stub can be cut flush or slightly concave so it will heal over cleanly with less bulge. Because there will be lots of sap flow past a cut low on the trunk such a cut should heal faster.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Yes, cuttings from BRT root, fairly easily.

Yes, cut, leaving a stub to prevent die back. Wait a year, then re-cut flush to the trunk or slightly concave. It might not be necessary to leave a stub, but when you don't know for certain how a tree will react it does not hurt to leave a stub. So I generally leave a stub rather than worry about each and every tree species I have.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I would usually take a 4 inch pot, fill it with peat & perlite blend, or any of your favorite fine potting mix. Moisten the mix. Then insert the cuttings into the mix. Then place the pot, cuttings & all inside a large clear plastic bag. Seal up bag. Then set in bright shade for a couple weeks. When you see growth of the cuttings, they will have rooted. You can get 10% to 90% of cuttings to root this way. If you use a rooting hormone, follow the directions on the package. I personally would not bother with a rooting hormon.

No fertilizer until after the cuttings have grown a while, 3 or 4 months.
 
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I’m a beef farmer and have lots of well rotten manure that goes well in the garden, would that work? Or does peat have a special property to it that helps root?
 

Shibui

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I hope your BRT cuttings are very easy to root. I think they will need to be to survive that mix.

Any sort of manure is not good for cuttings. Manure is full of microbes. Some good, others not so good and you have put an open wound into that. It also tends to pack pretty tight so not enough air in it. Straight sand would be better if you don't have peat.
Cutting mix is almost sterile. It has properties of holding some moisture but also enough spaces for plenty of air that all roots need.
I wonder if aged manure that has been sterilised would be a good sub for peat? Microwave until hot to kill all bugs and mix with coarse sand might just work.

Fingers crossed.
 

sorce

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Crazy is...

When it's ok to bring a bag of shit in the house......

If .....

It has a tree in it!

When you're ready for pots, will trade burgers!

Sorce
 
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The local garden centre has finally reopened due to covid so I’m going there today to get peat and some other goodies. Would it be too late for the cuttings in the manure to be transferred to the peat?
 
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