Root experiment

[Shay]

Hello all,
I had a fascinating experience with a few oak acorns I planted this season that gave me an idea.
I planted the acorns in a colander and at that time had a small amount of soil. so they were planted very shallow (about half an inch deep overall). I figured I'll transplant them once they sprout. They sprouted and when I took them out, instead of having a long single tap root, they had lots and lots of ramified short roots. I didn't take any pictures of that unfortunately... I will shoot them next year or next repot.
I thought I'd try the same thing with JBP. Maybe the cutting procedure can be avoided and a natural look can be achieved... I planted about a 100 seeds in a shallow colander relic (100% perlit) . Attaching some photos and I'll update as things progress.
Any thoughts?
Cheers,
Shay

 

[Vance Wood]

This is very close to the idea with some Pines where the root of the tree is cut before the tree is off the cotyledons, This creats a shallow root system with good surface roots. Withe an Oak this is a very good idea because they primarily produce deep tap roots.

 

[Rusty Davis]

Keep at it and keep us updated. I love me some oaks

 

[aml1014]

This seems to be a good idea, but the reason for doing the seedling cutting technique is to get the first node as close to the soil as possible. This makes it easier to produce shohin sized JBP.

Aaron

 

[0soyoung]

This seems to be a good idea, but the reason for doing the seedling cutting technique is to get the first node as close to the soil as possible.

I disagree. IMHO, the purpose is to eliminate the tap root so that seedling will then have nothing but lateral roots (emanating from one plane) at the base of the trunk.

The first node is exactly where the first set of needles (or true leaves) appear, which is rarely far above ground level. After a year or two the sapling is little more than a long stem and most often there is no foliage at the first node. One must prune that long stem and hope that a bud or two pops at the first node. If it happens, then one continues development in the standard fashion. If not, the lower trunk might be twisted down to visually compact the internodes for shohin, developed further to become a larger bonsai, or discarded. Personally, I love twisting, but I gladly accept trees that do rebud at the lowest node.

 

[Vance Wood]

This seems to be a good idea, but the reason for doing the seedling cutting technique is to get the first node as close to the soil as possible. This makes it easier to produce shohin sized JBP.

Aaron

Your imagination is selling you short. I am aware of the technique, have you thought to think beyond just Pines?

 

[Vance Wood]

These are three of the planters I developed back in the later part of the 70's, for which I received a patent, and marketed them till the late 90's when the availability of material made them un marketable in price.

 

[aml1014]

Your imagination is selling you short. I am aware of the technique, have you thought to think beyond just Pines?

I'm sure it works fine for deciduous trees, but he wants to do it with JBP in order to eliminate the need of doing the seedling cutting technique. Which I used to eliminate the tap AND get the first node low.
But hey, I may be wrong about wanting the first node as low as possible what do you think @Adair M ? Am I wring?

Aaron

 

[aml1014]

I disagree. IMHO, the purpose is to eliminate the tap root so that seedling will then have nothing but lateral roots (emanating from one plane) at the base of the trunk.

I disagree, that's one reason, not the only one.

Aaron

 

[Vance Wood]

I'm sure it works fine for deciduous trees, but he wants to do it with JBP in order to eliminate the need of doing the seedling cutting technique. Which I used to eliminate the tap AND get the first node low.
But hey, I may be wrong about wanting the first node as low as possible what do you think @Adair M ? Am I wring?

Aaron

If you go back to the first post; Shay Yamadori the author of this post, you will see he was asking about his Oak not JBP, or did I miss something? You are right about eliminating the tap root is not the only reason for doing this. This kind of system develops a fine root system that will allow the tree a better structure for a bonsai pot.

 

[aml1014]

If you go back to the first post; Shay Yamadori the author of this post, you will see he was asking about his Oak not JBP, or did I miss something?

I thought I'd try the same thing with JBP. Maybe the cutting procedure can be avoided and a natural look can be achieved... I planted about a 100 seeds in a shallow colander relic (100% perlit) . Attaching some photos and I'll update as things progress.

Aaron

 

[Shay]

If you go back to the first post; Shay Yamadori the author of this post, you will see he was asking about his Oak not JBP, or did I miss something? You are right about eliminating the tap root is not the only reason for doing this. This kind of system develops a fine root system that will allow the tree a better structure for a bonsai pot.

Oak acorns were how I got the idea. Wanted to see the affect on a JBP as well.
I guess we will have to see...

 

[Vance Wood]

Oak acorns were how I got the idea. Wanted to see the affect on a JBP as well.
I guess we will have to see...

You're right.

 

[Adair M]

I disagree. IMHO, the purpose is to eliminate the tap root so that seedling will then have nothing but lateral roots (emanating from one plane) at the base of the trunk.

The first node is exactly where the first set of needles (or true leaves) appear, which is rarely far above ground level. After a year or two the sapling is little more than a long stem and most often there is no foliage at the first node. One must prune that long stem and hope that a bud or two pops at the first node. If it happens, then one continues development in the standard fashion. If not, the lower trunk might be twisted down to visually compact the internodes for shohin, developed further to become a larger bonsai, or discarded. Personally, I love twisting, but I gladly accept trees that do rebud at the lowest node.

Oso, it's both. Eliminate the single tap root, and develop a radial root system. And eliminate that long section between the original roots and the first node.

I have seen many, many JBP seedlings where the first whorl of branches is 5 or 6 inches above the first roots. That section has no buds, which means no branches.

So to shorten the tree, lots of people wire that lower trunk and put in extreme curves to shorten it.

If, on the other hand, you do a seedling cutting, you get low buds, and you can force branches pretty much wherever you want.

For a regular size JBP, those first couple inches don't matter too much. But for Shohin, they're critical!

Here's why:

Traditionally, JBP are put on top of the Shohin box stand. The middle of the stand is at eye level, so when you look at the JBP, you're actually looking up at it. From below. Well, we really don't want the view of the tree to be the undersides of the branches, we want it to be the foliage! So, we need very low branches to be pulled down so we can't see under them! And remember a Shohin is only 8 inches tall.

Next post I'll show some examples from Kokofu.

 

[Adair M]

Look carefully. Most of these JBP have their first branch about an inch above the top of the nebari. Most have some degree of exposed roots, the nebari begins at the top of the roots. And about an inch above that is the first branch.

You just can't make a good "top of the box" informal upright Shohin JBP if the first branch is 5 inches above the nebari!

 

[Adair M]

What luck! Jonas just happened to be helping Mark Comstock do some JBP seedling cuttings today! Here's a picture of what they cut off:



Those stems are at least two inches, maybe even three from where they were cut to where the roots start. And that's when they do the cuttings. If they don't do the cuttings, that section grows even more!

This is the part they throw away. The little crowns are set in a box with a little spaghnum moss over a mix.

 

[parhamr]

Y'all nerds (I say that with love) are arguing about just the same damn thing but in different words and ways <3

 

[0soyoung]

Look carefully. Most of these JBP have their first branch about an inch above the top of the nebari. Most have some degree of exposed roots, the nebari begins at the top of the roots. And about an inch above that is the first branch.

You just can't make a good "top of the box" informal upright Shohin JBP if the first branch is 5 inches above the nebari!

Yes, I am aware of this, Adair.
The only little bit of a pissing contest was that aml1014 said

the reason for doing the seedling cutting technique is to get the first node as close to the soil as possible.

With which I disagreed and said

IMHO, the purpose is to eliminate the tap root so that seedling will then have nothing but lateral roots (emanating from one plane) at the base of the trunk.

aml1014 then said

that's one reason, not the only one.

which is pretty much the point.

 

[0soyoung]

Here's a picture of what they cut off:

Those stems are at least two inches, maybe even three from where they were cut to where the roots start. And that's when they do the cuttings. If they don't do the cuttings, that section grows even more!

This is the part they throw away. The little crowns are set in a box with a little spaghnum moss over a mix.

So I am going to posit that the seedlings were only about an inch tall above their natural soil line and that pretty much everything you've shown in this pic is taproot. Just for the moment let's suppose that I am correct. What does the length of tap root have to do with how high the first node is above the soil line?

It would be interesting to have some kind of data about how tall seedlings are from the natural soil line (root collar) to first leaves/node - got anything? I think JBP is around and inch, but I have no data. I'm also aware that Jonas practice was to cut JBP/JRP about 3/4 inch below first leafs. One could, in principle, cut the stem even shorter, but I think the survival rate drops the shorter stem is cut - the highest survival rate is likely when cut right at the natural soil level (but I am not a nurseryman with extensive seedling cutting experience).

 

[Adair M]

So I am going to posit that the seedlings were only about an inch tall above their natural soil line and that pretty much everything you've shown in this pic is taproot. Just for the moment let's suppose that I am correct. What does the length of tap root have to do with how high the first node is above the soil line?

It would be interesting to have some kind of data about how tall seedlings are from the natural soil line (root collar) to first leaves/node - got anything? I think JBP is around and inch, but I have no data. I'm also aware that Jonas practice was to cut JBP/JRP about 3/4 inch below first leafs. One could, in principle, cut the stem even shorter, but I think the survival rate drops the shorter stem is cut - the highest survival rate is likely when cut right at the natural soil level (but I am not a nurseryman with extensive seedling cutting experience).

Uh, no.

This is the part they keep:



Those little bits held with fingers and thumb are stuck as cuttings. There's a few uncut ones laying in the pan. There's about 3 inches of stem between the juvenile "needles" and the actual roots. They keep about 1/4 yo 1/2 inch of stem, and discard the rest.