Rosemary landscape planting

Attila Soos

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Irene, a compliment like yours is the dream of any bonsai artist.

Behr, if you want to play with "real mesquite", check out the Chilean mesquite (Prosopis chilensis) - the thornless variety, for your future South-West landscapes. It would be a shame not to use them, for a few reasons.

They are much easier subjects than rosemary, almost indestructible in any soil.
They live much longer than rosemary.
Easier to prune and train than rosemary.
And.. they look like the real mesquite!!!

The only downside is that you don't have the "instant old bark look" of the rosemary, but you get that a few years later. Using a rosemary in this landscape, makes this a risky proposition: they are tough plants, but somewhat unpredictable in bonsai culture. With the Chilean mesquite, it is a safe bet that they will outlive us, even as a bonsai.

Here is a link: http://www.aridzonetrees.com/AZT In...ts/Prosopis/Prosopis thornless hybrid AZT.htm

I thought I would mention this to you, since it would be a waste of your talent not to create more of these landscapes, you seem to have a real feel for the South-West mood.
 
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irene_b

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Irene, a compliment like yours is the dream of any bonsai artist.

Behr, if you want to play with "real mesquite", check out the Chilean mesquite (Prosopis chilensis) - the thornless variety, for your future South-West landscapes. It would be a shame not to use them, for a few reasons.

They are much easier subjects than rosemary, almost indestructible in any soil.
They live much longer than rosemary.
Easier to prune and train than rosemary.
And.. they look like the real mesquite!!!

The only downside is that you don't have the "instant old bark look" of the rosemary, but you get that a few years later. Using a rosemary in this landscape, makes this a risky proposition: they are tough plants, but somewhat unpredictable in bonsai culture. With the Chilean mesquite, it is a safe bet that they will outlive us, even as a bonsai.

Here is a link: http://www.aridzonetrees.com/AZT In...ts/Prosopis/Prosopis thornless hybrid AZT.htm

I thought I would mention this to you, since it would be a waste of your talent not to create more of these landscapes, you seem to have a real feel for the South-West mood.


Have you used this one for Bonsai culture?
Irene
 

Attila Soos

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Have you used this one for Bonsai culture?
Irene

Yes, that's the reason why I am recommending it (I wouldn't recommend plants that I don't personally know).

I am working with one that I purchased from the Los Angeles Arboretum 3 years ago. It was about 5 feet tall in a very large nursery can. I chopped it down from 5 feet to 5 inches, and reduced the rootball to a fraction of the original size. Today it is as healthy and vigorous as it can be, no matter how hard I prune it. If you forget to water it for a week, no problem.

Since it was a young-looking nursery plant, it will take a few more years until it will look anything like a bonsai, but I have high hopes for it.
 

irene_b

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Yes, that's the reason why I am recommending it (I wouldn't recommend plants that I don't personally know).

I am working with one that I purchased from the Los Angeles Arboretum 3 years ago. It was about 5 feet tall in a very large nursery can. I chopped it down from 5 feet to 5 inches, and reduced the rootball to a fraction of the original size. Today it is as healthy and vigorous as it can be, no matter how hard I prune it. If you forget to water it for a week, no problem.

Since it was a young-looking nursery plant, it will take a few more years until it will look anything like a bonsai, but I have high hopes for it.

Can you please post a few pics of it to show us.
Thank You
Irene
 

Behr

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First of all I would like to express my gratitude to all for the enlightening discussions taking place as a result of this posting...It is my understanding of ‘art history’ that during the ‘hey-day’ of the impressionistic art development, various now well known artists, would often gather in coffee shops, restaurants, cafes, ect., and discuss many aspects of their art...As a result of this sharing of ideas and techniques the art form grew exponentially...I do believe the internet forums are making this very thing possible in our ‘art form’ today, by providing the opportunity for us to discuss ideas, techniques, artistic merit, analysis of works, ect., with artists from all over the world...It is exciting, for me at least, to be able to participate in this form of learning experience, and for that I am truly thankful...

And although this as well as Nick Lenz' plantings use a much closer perspective (point A), the dominant theme is ruins rather than whole buildings.
It could be something as simple as "a snapshot in close perspective" or something as profound (or profane depending on your political or philosophical leanings) as the victory of nature over the works of man.

Does anyone have thoughts along this line?

Mr. Chris,

As I stated before I do appreciate your thoughts and questions on this...Others have expressed their thoughts which I much appreciate, and I will also attempt to discuss those from my own perspective as the person doing this work...I believe in my initial concept and plan for this, I did indeed have nothing more than the “a snapshot in close perspective" in mind... My intent from the beginning was to create the illusion of a ‘mission ruin’ with a very large, old looking mesquite tree, and I even shared this thought with several people on different occasions long before the ‘assembly’ work actually began...I did have a mental vision of what I wanted to do and how, along with most of the materials I would use to do it...I originally began by laying out the back ‘foundation’ blocks and potted the tree into the desired position and only placed, but not secured, a few stones in the front to help keep the soil in place...I do however recall very distinctly having many thoughts during the assembly of the walls about the concept of ‘the work of mankind only survives with upkeep from man, however nature continues to evolve, change, and yet exist without, or even, in spite of man...So to have such thoughts when viewing this work I do believe is very normal...I have spent my entire life with a very rebellious attitude, and to have thoughts of “the victory of nature over the works of man”, is certainly not a foreign concept to me...I do in fact have a few other ideas floating around that indeed would strongly suggest that very theme...
Chris Johnston said:
Perhaps my interpretation of your piece as a ruin is my own predilection for the remnants of human habitation. I see the remains of an old stone wall where a highway bypass has come through, and can't resist the urge to stop and tramp. I see an abandoned farmhouse slowly collapsing on itself and wonder about the family that built it, and the lives and loves it has seen.
This is precisely how I would interpret this composition, and indeed have found myself having these very thoughts on numerous occasions as I stood amidst various ruins...Thank you for the beauty of this statement...

Chris -

I don't see the "victory" of nature over the works of man in the stated compositions. Rather, the impermanence of man and nature. To me, Behr (and others) has managed to capture wabi sabi.

Andrew Juniper claims, "if an object or expression can bring about, within us, a sense of serene melancholy and a spiritual longing, then that object could be said to be wabi-sabi." There are many in this thread that has alluded to the wabi sabi in Behr's composition. The success of this work is based in Behr's talent to capture the wabi sabi in his composition.

-Candy

Ms. Candy, I don’t ever recall being accused of “wabi sabi” before, but I do quite like it...It has always been an expression I have had trouble understanding, although a while back during a discussion of the concept at the BonsaiTalk forum Mr. Walter Pall shared a photo and story that I think helped me to at least marginally understand...I do think the statement “the impermanence of man and nature” is a concept that we are all aware of, yet it is seldom actually boldly portrayed in our work...Perhaps this one does, and now that you have mentioned it I do also believe there is a feeling of what may be called wabi sabi in this...

I would rather go with the "snapshot in close perspective" in this case. I don't think that the building in this landscape represents a ruin. Rather, Behr re-created a small part of the mission, in order to suggest the whole building.

The impermanence of man-made objects is always an implied theme when creating the wabi-sabi feel, and that manifests through the aged look and patina of these objects.

The victory of nature over the works of man would be, in my opinion, and extreme interpretation. In the lanscapes of the Western cultures, the victory if man over nature is a common theme. In the Eastern representations, man doesn't want to dominate nature, but rather live in harmony with it, and that's what I see in many Eastern landscapes. That's what I see in Behr's representation as well, as the mission and surrounding nature blend with each-other in perfect harmony.

A natural progression would be the following: when a brand new mission is built, it would tend to dominate it's surrounding. As the mission ages though centuries, it will slowly blend into the landscape. If the mission is neglected then it will crumble, and nature will take over. But representing this last phase would be the artist's choice, and not a general view of Eastern landscape art.

A typical image of nature's victory over man would be one that we see in the jungles of Mexico, where ancient pyramids have trees and vines growing over them, their roots slowly penetrating and breaking them apart. Same images I've seen in landscapes from India.

Mr. Attila, I have always enjoyed reading your comments pertaining to ‘Eastern’ and ‘Western’ cultures and philosophies on various forums, as well as the vision and understanding you have for not only ‘artistic principals’ but also how it relates to bonsai…I particularly am intrigued here with your concept of only portraying “a small part of the mission, in order to suggest the whole building”…This had not occurred to me at all in the process or afterward until you mentioned it, but this is indeed a very genuine and good analysis of the landscape…I am also very appreciative of the explanation of ‘natural progression’ you have expounded on here…This gives much ‘food for thought’ in designing future projects…

Unfortunately I type and think so slowly I am having a difficult time keeping up with all that is happening in this thread and resulting discussion, so I will close this post and began another with the questions and virts from Mr. Will…Hopefully I will stay close enough to the discussion to allow it to continue…This is truly a learning experience for me, and I hope others as well…

Regards
Behr

:) :) :)
 
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I must say, Behr, that this thread has been perhaps the most enlightening one I have read thus far on any forum. Thank you and all the respondents for the thoughtful posts and for the opportunity to discuss some things that I had been unconsciously chewing on for some time. I look forward to where the thread will go from here.
 

Behr

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QUOTE=Will Heath;6703] I worked on the photograph a bit in the first attachment.

In the interest of learning more about this piece, I hope you don't mind me asking a few questions and stating an opinion or two. The second attachment is marked up for my questions below.

A) This branch seems overly large for the tree, my eye keeps landing on it and sticking to it. It seems so large that it may pull over the tree someday. Did you consider removing it and if so what was the deciding factor in leaving it as is? The third attachment below is without the branch.

B) What type of plants are these growing in the background?

C) What is this plant? It looks like a creeping juniper.
Will[/QUOTE]

Mr. Will,

Thank you for taking the time to make these virts and raise these thoughts…I will certainly attempt to speak to all your questions and suggestions, and hope it raises other questions and discussion…

First virt…I am not in the least pleased with the photo quality of the landscape pic as posted…This photo was taken at our club meeting when I was doing a program on ‘Bonsai Portraits’…I only had available some of my most portable lighting and backdrops, and in addition had to compensate for the lighting in the room, which of necessity had to be left on during the program…I was also being assisted by others in the placement of the lights, which I was very encouraged about, because I am very much a believer in hands on learning…In the future when the wire is removed, the stones ‘antiqued’, the soil surface dressed, possibly a grilled salmon fillet to ‘tweak’ the foliage separations, and the planting is more ‘show ready’ I will probably attempt to take better photos…Who knows?...After the comments here, I may even be inclined to enter a photo in a contest…Thank you for the effort…With different graphic editor settings details are often brought out that are otherwise invisible…

Second virt…Plant ‘B’ is a single clump of ‘super dwarf mondo grass’…This variety attains a maximum height of 2 inches, is not nearly as aggressive as the larger varieties, does well in sun or shade, easily propagated by separation, and is very hardy in pot culture…I have even kept clumps alive for more than a month by just putting the roots in water…Plant ‘C’ is ‘elfin thyme’ the smallest of all varieties of thyme…It does have a ‘creeping’ tendency, and needs to be controlled occasionally by removal of the outer edges,[roots and all] because it does put out roots as it advances…I don’t find it to be objectionably aggressive, but needs attention a couple times a year…One characteristic I am particularly fond of is the manner in which it will grow over the edge of the container in somewhat of a cascading fashion…This can be used very effectively to ‘lead’ the eye into a composition, or to provide an ‘exit point’ for the visual movement…The other plants are a dwarf variety of sedum which has a somewhat ‘grayish’ color and in my opinion lends itself well to a ‘Southwestern’ feeling…

Third virt…Really, Mr. Will…Was this a test?...Was this only to initiate discussion?...If so, well done…On the other hand, I do find this suggestion not at all uncommon with more than one of my trees…I have shared a boxwood clump in the ‘live oak form’ at BonsaiTalk, and had several people suggest that I shorten the width of the canopy considerably…Interestingly enough, at least to me, was the fact that all those which made this suggestion were either people which lived in more ‘northern’ areas, or those that were more ‘traditional’ in their approach to bonsai…This led me to a couple different conclusions, which may be totally wrong, but I do believe has some merit…

Here in the ‘southern’ and ‘gulf costal’ areas of the U.S. we have several species of trees that spread many times as wide as they are tall…As Ms. Irene stated “that is how the mesquite trees grow down here……..Our Oaks do this as well”, and so do several other species…I have always thought it has something to do with not only the genetics of the tree, but also our longer growing seasons…I am also a firm believer that Mr. John Naka at least attempted to help us understand that if there was ever to be a recognized ‘American Style’ we would need to use the forms of trees in nature that are prevalent here as our inspiration for our ‘artistic’ trees…It will likely take many years of doing this before it becomes accepted worldwide, and I seriously doubt I will live to see it happen, but I certainly plan to give all my effort in the time I have left to hopefully help others see this…

Mr. Al said, “The last virtual just made the tree symetrical, destroying all the character in the tree. Now it just looks ordinary. I heard that way too many times in the contest. That large character branch is what sets the mood for this piece”, and I fully agree…I was a bit disappointed in the judging of the most recent AoB contest, although not in the least unexpected…The judges did an admirable job in judging, and I don’t think many would or could dispute their choices for the best trees… However, consider that three highly respected artists, all from ‘Eastern’ cultures and backgrounds, were ask to judge trees created by ‘Western’ artists from two quite different regions, and many of them styled in a manner which very well represented a tree form ‘native’ to the artist, but which the judges were not likely familiar with…Will this or can this ever change?...I think it possibly can, but it will only happen as more ‘good’ trees are exhibited that represent ‘native’ tree forms…I am of the opinion that the internet forums, blogs, and artist websites, will help to make the difference in this, and help to establish a recognizable “American Style”, which could very well include “Northern American, Southern American, Eastern American, and Western American” native tree forms…

Mr. Tom made a very interesting comment concerning the ‘branch in question’, “It adds credibility (maybe realism is a better word). That this is indeed a ruin.That large branch has been allowed to grow unchecked across the doorway to mission. Something that if inhabited we humans would never let happen. Your third virt shows a neat and tidy tree, which would be out of character for this scene.” I had not considered this however it is very notable and indeed is worth keeping in mind when working with a similar ‘story’…

Ms. Candy totally took me by surprise with her comment, “the original foliage outline echoes the outline of the ruin. That long flowing branch is needed not just for character but also for repetition of that long lazy line.”…I will always be amazed what people see in a work that makes everything come together for that particular individual…Thank you so much for that observation Ms. Candy…A few years back I entered a bonsai styling contest at BonsaiTalk…This was my first attempt in any bonsai contest, and my first attempt at doing a ‘phoenix graft’…In the voting comments, Mr. Carl Bergstrom [who by the way won the contest] said, [to paraphrase] ‘a mirror image seldom works in art, however it works well with this tree’…I had not noticed this in the least, it certainly was not intentional, and I doubt I would have been successful at an attempt to do it if it had been intended, but he was right on the money…It was not only a mirror image side to side, but also front to back…Unfortunately due to losing some of the branches the tree is no longer quite as obviously a ‘mirror image’ but I have tried to maintain that as much as possible, and now that I am aware of the canopy echoing the line of the ‘ruin’ I will certainly attempt to maintain that characteristic…

A couple things along this same vein that were planned are; the negative space on the right of the main trunk being occupied by the ‘visually’ very strong ‘arched window’, which I believe helps to balance the weight of the strong lower branch on the left…I also intentionally attempted to mimic the line of the right side of the trunk with the left side of the ‘arched window’…The window in the rightmost wall [not very visible in this photo], is also mimicked by the lower branches on the right side of the tree…

Mr. Chris said “Critics are always fond of finding things in works of art that the artist may never have intended (why else would Jacques Brel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris still be produced?), so my point in this discussion was to draw out some meaning in a work that is obviously saying something. Art stirs the intellect and emotion through the skilled application of technique and composition.”…This is certainly true and I am excited about this discussion as a learning tool for me…The more any of us can learn about what ‘moves or excites’ viewers, the better we will be able to use these things in creating art with emotion…

Mr. Attila stated, “The tree is slightly imbalanced and awkward, and that's why I like it. "Improving it" would take away from it's charm and would be much less endearing to me.This tree, as it is, couldn't stand alone as an individual bonsai without some changes…I believe one of the most important things that contribute to ‘character’ is imperfection…This tree has an abundance of imperfection, and Mr. Attila is on the money about the tree standing alone…Don’t we all have trees that fall into that category?...I am growing more and more fond of landscapes, and have quite a few in the planning stages…This is a ‘medium’ where an ‘ok’ tree or trees can become a ‘wow’ experience with some creative planning and execution…
But in the context of a landscape, realism is more effective than immaculate conception...I mean perfection.
Now that was some serious funny, but also so true…I also fully agree Mr. Attila about “very nice discussion going on here, fun to read all the opinions”…

Ms. Irene, How can anyone respond to that…Thank you again for a beautiful story…I really think you should share with the internet community the story of your meeting Mr. John…as Mr. Attila so properly put it…” Irene, a compliment like yours is the dream of any bonsai artist.”

Mr. Attila, the Chilean Mesquite does indeed sound like a wonderful species for use in our art…This makes me wish I could find an older plant or 10…You can be sure I will be looking, but I just don’t believe I have what it would require to grow one from a seedling or liner…Thanks for sharing the information…I did decide If I live long enough to outlive the rosemary in this planting, it will be replaced with a boxwood in the ‘southern live oak form’…

Regards
Behr

:) :) :)
 
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You know me too well Behr, this is not fair. ;)

Thanks you for addressing my questions and expanding my knowledge of this piece.



Will
 

Behr

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Just testing to see if a post will bring back the missing photos...

Regards
Behr

:) :) :)
 

Behr

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I think Behr is saying he may not be able to repost...
Very true, Mr. Chris, unfortunately the photo is on my computer which at this time is in storage following a relocation...I currently have no idea when, or if, I will be able to post the photo again...

Ms. Paddles,

I would so appreciate if you, or anyone that has any of the photos from this thread, would post them...Thanks in advance...

Regards
Behr

:) :) :)
 

Rick Moquin

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Very true, Mr. Chris, unfortunately the photo is on my computer which at this time is in storage following a relocation...I currently have no idea when, or if, I will be able to post the photo again...

Ms. Paddles,

I would so appreciate if you, or anyone that has any of the photos from this thread, would post them...Thanks in advance...

Regards
Behr

:) :) :)
Your wish is my command!
 

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