Rotating trees indoors (for home, for show, etc.)

[Adair M]

Sounds like a lot of stress to me.




I did not imply that at all. What I did imply is that we do not get to see the rest period that these tree go thru. Maybe no candle pruning that year or what ever measures they may do. Maybe not pruned as hard for that year, I have no idea. My implication was not that the trees look like shit after a week. Why would you even think that?

The trees do just fine......

Because of this:

Smoke said,
“Keep in mind that many of these trees are prepared for a few years for this one exhibit and then rested. Unfortunately we don't get to see the few months after the exhibit and what the trees look like six months later, or even a couple years later.”

The way I read that is you are implying the trees are adversely affected by their week at the show.

I have not been to Kokofu, but I have several friends who have been apprentices, and have worked the trees shown there. Two have worked trees that won! They have told me that yes, the trees are prepared years in advance, much like an athlete prepares years in advance to “peak” during an Olympics. Trees will be at their fullest, their highest amount of ramification, wire removed or minimized, etc. JBP will have been decandled for several years in a row to induce short needles and short internodes and will be very thick.

After the show, many of the trees will get repotted into larger pots, cut back, or allowed to grow out (depending upon their needs), or perhaps simply put back on the bench.

Nothing to do with the week inside, it’s just the normal cycle of training to peak at showtime, then rebuilding after the show.

I did the same thing with my avatar JBP. I decandled it every year for 4 years to get it ready to show. I took it to the Nationals. After that, I showed it in Regional shows in my part of the county for a year. Then, I cut it back, removed the wire, and let it grow long needles again! To rebuild strength.

This summer, the decandling will resume, the long needles will get pulled next fall, and the cycle will begin again.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

Ume are particularly tricky. They want them to just be beginning to bloom at show time! Prepping Ume fir Kokofu is “a dark art”! Lol! Especially when you consider that all the trees have to be brought to Toyko a couple weeks prior to the show. The judges then review the entries to decide which trees will actually be in the show a few weeks later! Can you imagine? Prepping the tree to look it’s best for the judging, transport it to Toyko, bring it home, and repeat it all over again in two or three weeks?

Naturally, the Ume would not be blooming at the time of the judging.

I love this! Thank you so much for sharing! Any tips on how to get them to bloom be just beginning to bloom, in September ... Next year will be my first nationals - i'm guessing there aren't many prunus mume that get displayed (in leaf?)

Plum blossoms, considered a harbinger of Spring, make an appearance by the middle of the month.

Daily High
10.2 °C ( 50.4 °F)
2nd coldest month of the year
Daily Low
2.9 °C ( 37.2 °F)
2nd coldest month of the year

Al I think this answers my question, thank you! It looks like, in japan, if a tree is brought indoors in february, it can safely be returned to outdoor benches or greenhouses without much risk of frost, and it can potentially continue to safely break dormancy if being indoors has already got that process going...

Yes, it stays outside, but I’ll bring it in for a few hours or a day or two at a time during blooming.

i guess the goal for me will be to get it to bloom closer to the beginning of April, when the maples start to break dormancy in my cold frame and i open the cold frame to start letting in light (maintaining about 5C, 41F). If it blooms then, i can bring it inside for 1-2 days and then return it to the crowded coldframe-turned-greenhouse safely


Thank you so much everyone!!!

 

[Adair M]

Derek, when are you trying to get your Ume to bloom?

September for the Nationals in Rochester? I’m thinking that would be pretty much impossible!

April??? That’s also pretty much impossible!

Ume bloom in the dead of winter, typically!

The one I had at Boon’s (when he lived in Hayward) used to bloom in late January. Which was perfect because that’s when the BIB show was held. The other times of the year, the tree looked pretty bad! It’s a novelty tree that when it’s in bloom (or just about to bloom) it’s the most beautiful thing in the garden! When not in bloom, it’s the ugliest thing in the garden!

You can accelerate or delay the blooming maybe a couple weeks by bringing it inside to warm up to bloom, or slow it down by refrigerating it, but not by more that a couple weeks.

 

[coh]

Derek, when are you trying to get your Ume to bloom?

September for the Nationals in Rochester? I’m thinking that would be pretty much impossible!

April??? That’s also pretty much impossible!

Ume bloom in the dead of winter, typically!

Well.....there's winter and then there's winter. I don't have any potted ume but do have one in the growing bed outside. Most years the buds get destroyed by late winter/early spring freezes and storms, but it did manage to bloom once. When was that? Hmmm...



Photo was taken May 2, 2018! And it wasn't an isolated flower, a couple of branches were covered with blooms. So in Montreal or upstate NY it may well be possible to have an ume blooming in April or even May.

I assume that one could control bloom time by how they winter the tree, so one could probably get it blooming much earlier if desired. September would probably be pretty difficult, though!

 

[Adair M]

Well.....there's winter and then there's winter. I don't have any potted ume but do have one in the growing bed outside. Most years the buds get destroyed by late winter/early spring freezes and storms, but it did manage to bloom once. When was that? Hmmm...

View attachment 244138

Photo was taken May 2, 2018! And it wasn't an isolated flower, a couple of branches were covered with blooms. So in Montreal or upstate NY it may well be possible to have an ume blooming in April or even May.

I assume that one could control bloom time by how they winter the tree, so one could probably get it blooming much earlier if desired. September would probably be pretty difficult, though!

Lol!!!

I suppose if the snow is only gone one week a year then April or May would be possible! I forget you guys live in permafrost! Lol!!!

Good point, Chris! Climate does matter.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I am a member of the Milwaukee Bonsai Society. East half of Milwaukee is zone 5b, west, only a couple miles is zone 5a, and 15 miles west of Milwaukee it is zone 4b. This is a much more harsh winter than the previous posters. We, MBS, have a winter silhouette show. There have been a number of casualties due to improper after care of trees brought inside during middle of winter. This is experience, not "internet knowledge".

Fact: it takes months of steadily declining night time temperatures to trigger or force the metabolic changes creating winter hardiness in a tree. It takes only hours of warmth to begin to undo those changes. There is little data, except for fruit crops, so it is not possible to cite exact time in warmth will cause problems, but it does.

Assume this blueberry example extends to maples. Normally blueberry flower buds are winter hardy through -18 F(-28 C). Vegetative buds are hardy thru -25 F (-32C) or colder. Feb 2013 SW Michigan had a typical cold winter, then suddenly in February had a week long thaw, with the last 2 days of the thaw reaching +80F (+26 C) for daytime highs. Then within 36 hours temps dropped to 0F (-18 C). Near 100% of blueberry flower buds were killed, no harvest 2013, even though the drop was to only zero, which is well within the normal hardiness range of blueberries. Vegetative buds were about 40% dead, so bushes we're slow to recover and add size that year.

 

[Adair M]

I am a member of the Milwaukee Bonsai Society. East half of Milwaukee is zone 5b, west, only a couple miles is zone 5a, and 15 miles west of Milwaukee it is zone 4b. This is a much more harsh winter than the previous posters. We, MBS, have a winter silhouette show. There have been a number of casualties due to improper after care of trees brought inside during middle of winter. This is experience, not "internet knowledge".

Fact: it takes months of steadily declining night time temperatures to trigger or force the metabolic changes creating winter hardiness in a tree. It takes only hours of warmth to begin to undo those changes. There is little data, except for fruit crops, so it is not possible to cite exact time in warmth will cause problems, but it does.

Assume this blueberry example extends to maples. Normally blueberry flower buds are winter hardy through -18 F(-28 C). Vegetative buds are hardy thru -25 F (-32C) or colder. Feb 2013 SW Michigan had a typical cold winter, then suddenly in February had a week long thaw, with the last 2 days of the thaw reaching +80F (+26 C) for daytime highs. Then within 36 hours temps dropped to 0F (-18 C). Near 100% of blueberry flower buds were killed, no harvest 2013, even though the drop was to only zero, which is well within the normal hardiness range of blueberries. Vegetative buds were about 40% dead, so bushes we're slow to recover and add size that year.

Sorry to hear about the troubles.

Yes, I suppose if no “pre-care” and no “after-care” were performed around a show where extreme climates are the norm, then the trees could suffer.

They’ve been doing Kokofu in Japan for nearly a hundred years. They’ve pretty well figured out that they have to prepare the trees properly before the show, and then what they have to do afterwards.

I mentioned they green house the junipers and pines so they will not be in “winter color”. I imagine they do something similiar with the deciduous to keep them dormant, but not keep them so cold they would be shocked when brought in to the show.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The original poster was not asking about Kofuku or shows, he was asking about bringing trees into his own home. I was going to continue, but got interrupted. And I'm getting interrupted again. I'll be back.

 

[JudyB]

I bring trees inside all the time. Especially now that I've gone towards shohin and chuchin primarily. I enjoy them very much, I usually take them outside overnight in the summer, just keep them in for a day or two. Except for bloomers they get to stay in longer. In the winter if I want one, I only bring in for a day, then back out at night. My exception is that I do have good winter protection in a greenhouse, so I don't have to worry so much. I would still never bring one in long enough to have it break dormancy, that would be problematic. I say you should enjoy seeing them in your everyday life inside and out.

 

[0soyoung]

The flowering genome is known to be pretty much conserved across all angiosperms. I suggest that you, @derek7745, read some scholarly papers to get an understanding of the events/conditions that are known to lead to or delay flowering.There is a cascade of events that lead to flowering. Vernalization (period of cold) is a key part

it takes months of steadily declining night time temperatures to trigger or force the metabolic changes creating winter hardiness in a tree. It takes only hours of warmth to begin to undo those changes. There is little data, except for fruit crops, so it is not possible to cite exact time in warmth will cause problems, but it does.

And you omit that once it falls below 40F there, it is solidly below 40F all 24 hours of each day, not just overnight like my climate. So 1,000 hours of bud chilling, say, only takes 6 weeks in your clime. You warm them up after 6 weeks and they are going to start growing. With only, say, 8 hours of chilling a day it takes 3 times longer in my climate to satisfy bud chilling needs.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@JudyB said what I was going to launch into in detail. Spring after danger of serious frost has passed, and summer, you can probably bring a tree indoors upwards of a week without problems.

Autumn, you need the trees to experience chilling at night, so for zone 6a thru zone 4. I would say no more than one day and night indoors or you might begin to loose winter hardiness. What I am rattling on about is for us northern growers, you guys in zone 7 have total different climate issues. So if you are in a cold northern climate, and are wintering trees without controlled temperature protection (I just leave a number lay where they grew all summer) you need to keep trees in autumn out to receive cold nights as much as possible. Unless you are going to winter in a frost free controlled space. Then in autumn a week indoors won't be a killer.

Winter, cold hardiness, again is built slowly and as @0soyoung said, once chill requirements are met, it takes very little time and the tree will loose hardiness and begin to grow.

Same USDA Farm Service seminar, grapes in February will loose winter hardiness with just a few hours of heat. Wine grapes loose hardiness most rapidly. North American hardy grapes loose winter hardiness more slowly.

So if you bring a tree indoors in winter for any length of time, over say 8 hours, you risk loosing full winter hardiness. After winter display, move tree to a frost free winter storage area for the remainder of the winter.

At the Wisconsin silhouette shows, we originally ran 2 days in the Mitchell Domes greenhouses, many had casualties, beeches, hornbeams & other trees died. Not all, but enough. They shortened the show to one roughly 6 hour day, and we warn members to protect the tree displayed after it goes home. I haven't heard of any casualties since shortening the show.

This does highlight the advantages of having a controlled temperature space to winter your trees.

 

[Emanon]

I apologize in advance but I had a related question: Where I live the temperature is pretty much the same inside and out year round. That is to say, I don't have a heater or air conditioner. If I get cold during the winter I close all the windows and put on more clothes and, if I get too warm during the summer, I open a window. I have large northwest facing windows that get much more direct sunlight than the mostly shaded south facing patio. Now that I'm running out of sunny outdoor space I want to start bringing some of my trees indoors more often to get some of the good direct afternoon sunlight. I know trees cannot survive "indoors" but why not exactly... if they are getting the same (or more) sunlight, the temperature is the same, I'm able to recreate the wind by opening windows on opposite sides of the room, and I'm able to leave the windows open so that the sunlight is not being filtered through possibly UV-treated glass? Is there anything else besides differences in temperature, sunlight, and wind that might adversely affect trees kept indoors? (I would obviously be taking the trees I brought inside for the sunlight back out at night and for watering in the morning.) The hard-and-fast rule has prevented me from experimenting with this...

 

[Deleted member 21616]

I bring trees inside all the time. Especially now that I've gone towards shohin and chuchin primarily. I enjoy them very much, I usually take them outside overnight in the summer, just keep them in for a day or two. Except for bloomers they get to stay in longer. In the winter if I want one, I only bring in for a day, then back out at night. My exception is that I do have good winter protection in a greenhouse, so I don't have to worry so much. I would still never bring one in long enough to have it break dormancy, that would be problematic. I say you should enjoy seeing them in your everyday life inside and out.

Thank you Judy! I really love this answer ...it's what is was hoping to hear LOL!! Ever bring in Prunus Mume of another flowering tree during winter, and then return it to your greenhouse (if so, what temperature is your greenhouse at that point?). I really just want my flowering tree sitting on my dining table!

I suggest that you, @derek7745, read some scholarly papers to get an understanding of the events/conditions that are known to lead to or delay flowering

thank you! and definitely will do!

We, MBS, have a winter silhouette show. There have been a number of casualties due to improper after care of trees brought inside during middle of winter

They shortened the show to one roughly 6 hour day, and we warn members to protect the tree displayed after it goes home. I haven't heard of any casualties since shortening the show.

would proper aftercare be a colframe that never goes below 2C (35-36)? I would be happy to bring my tree indoor for 4-6 hours at its peak of flowering, and then return it outside.

@Adair M you can blame Bill for all this LOL. When i was there he had his full moon cascade sitting indoors in his shop. when i asked he said he rotates trees indoors few days at a time! But maybe spring, summer and fall are safer - have you been to his place in winter? Do you know if he does the same?

Thank you @coh !!

 

[Adair M]

Thank you Judy! I really love this answer ...it's what is was hoping to hear LOL!! Ever bring in Prunus Mume of another flowering tree during winter, and then return it to your greenhouse (if so, what temperature is your greenhouse at that point?). I really just want my flowering tree sitting on my dining table!



thank you! and definitely will do!





would proper aftercare be a colframe that never goes below 2C (35-36)? I would be happy to bring my tree indoor for 4-6 hours at its peak of flowering, and then return it outside.

@Adair M you can blame Bill for all this LOL. When i was there he had his full moon cascade sitting indoors in his shop. when i asked he said he rotates trees indoors few days at a time! But maybe spring, summer and fall are safer - have you been to his place in winter? Do you know if he does the same?

Thank you @coh !!

I have been to Bill’s place, during Nationals. I know he brings trees in to his shop for display from time to time.

You guys up in snow country have a very different climate from me, so I really am not qualified to advise you on how to treat them indoors when the temperature differences are as large as yours. O

 

[JudyB]

Thank you Judy! I really love this answer ...it's what is was hoping to hear LOL!! Ever bring in Prunus Mume of another flowering tree during winter, and then return it to your greenhouse (if so, what temperature is your greenhouse at that point?). I really just want my flowering tree sitting on my dining table!



@coh !!

I can't imagine that bringing a tree in for a few hours a day in the middle of dormancy would be a problem. Periods of over 40 sustained over a period of more than 3 days is my worry factor in the cold greenhouse. So as long as you break up the time spent indoors, I don't think you' have a problem. I do it all the time. My cold greenhouse is between 30 and 40 all winter. So that is the only thing that I have that may differ from the norm, I can deal with it if it doe break dormancy. Have not had this issue as I always take the display tree back out at night
Except for tonight as I have Satsuki inside!

 

[Deleted member 21616]

Thanks so much @JudyB

i think i'm going to give it a try this winter! I don't know when it will flower, but in february/march, my cold frame was hovering between 36-43F during the daytime, depending on how much light was hitting it. at night, the lowest was 36. That's pretty close to your winter set up

really appreciate everybody's help here, thank you all!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@derek7745
While I may sound dire, and my warnings are from seeing some nice trees die after a couple days indoors in January or early February. A few hours inside is no problem at all. I winter many of my trees with no temperature protection. Just on the ground out of wind. We can get extreme cold in February, -30 C is possible. If a tree comes indoors, it might not be able to to take that after time indoors.

If you can protect your trees from extremes, after their term indoors, you will be okay. I would say if after the indoors appearance, if you could keep them above +23 F or above -5 C, you should be fine. If a tree has started to grow, or bloom, like Ume, above 0 C or above 32 F would be appropriate. Below +4 C would keep new growth minimal until it is safe to go outside.

Japanese Maples break dormancy easier than many species, they are the ones that this caution applies to more than say Japanese black pine which need a certain period of above 18 C to start growing.

 

[Cable]

I'm glad I found this thread. I've spent days looking for info on bonsai dormancy not only because I was interested on how winter silhouette shows work without the plants coming out of dormancy as well as because I'm always interested in the "how" (in this case, how do plants come out of dormancy?").

@Leo in N E Illinois, I love your explanations. In my reading, I came across something interesting and was wondering if you had heard of it?

During the fall, the tree begins forming winter buds and producing a hormone known as abscisic acid which causes the leaves to fall off and the tree to enter a dormant state. The concentrations of abscisic acid are highest at leaf drop and slowly diminish in response to periods of cold. On average a tree in the northern hemisphere needs to go through 60 days where the temperature is below 40 degrees for the abscisic acid to break down enough to allow the tree to leaf out once favorable conditions arrive.

I'm wondering if that's the mechanism behind the chilling days requirement (since you can't believe everything you read on the internet)?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I'm glad I found this thread. I've spent days looking for info on bonsai dormancy not only because I was interested on how winter silhouette shows work without the plants coming out of dormancy as well as because I'm always interested in the "how" (in this case, how do plants come out of dormancy?").

@Leo in N E Illinois, I love your explanations. In my reading, I came across something interesting and was wondering if you had heard of it?



I'm wondering if that's the mechanism behind the chilling days requirement (since you can't believe everything you read on the internet)?

I believe that is at least one part of the control of dormancy. I do not know, but I suspect that dormancy is controlled by more than one environmental / biochemical control mechanism. But this is certainly one of the mechanisms involved.

 

[Cable]

I have to imagine you’re right. I know we use Degree Days which can predict leaf break and flowering for certain species and I think hours of light plays a role as well for some plants. There also must be an override since I doubt a plant would just not leaf out if there was freak weather that caused an early warmup before the chilling days requirement was met.