Rule of thumb for scrolls...number of chop marks

[kakejiku]

Here is the link finally on a device that works...
http://wallscroll.blogspot.com/2011/04/my-2011-masterpiece-scroll.html

I do not think I would ever do such a large scroll again...

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Just Lovely

Sometimes Al I can't tell which point you are trying to make. When you say "just lovely" do you mean - lovely despite all the chops? Or "just lovely" as in the overwhelming number of chops.

I come from the "less is more" school of scroll appreciation. I find too many chops distracting, and have a hard time understanding how all the different chops are "necessary" for the work.

I once read a quote describing the Japanese esthetic in this way: "Western Art has a tendency to add elements until one more is 'too much'. Japanese Art removes elements until one less is 'too few'." I am not trying to argue about "rules of art", but rather my own personal taste when it comes to Japanese art.

 

[Smoke]

Sometimes Al I can't tell which point you are trying to make. When you say "just lovely" do you mean - lovely despite all the chops? Or "just lovely" as in the overwhelming number of chops.

I come from the "less is more" school of scroll appreciation. I find too many chops distracting, and have a hard time understanding how all the different chops are "necessary" for the work.

I once read a quote describing the Japanese esthetic in this way: "Western Art has a tendency to add elements until one more is 'too much'. Japanese Art removes elements until one less is 'too few'." I am not trying to argue about "rules of art", but rather my own personal taste when it comes to Japanese art.

Good God Greg, you have had to put up with me for seven years and you havn't got my sarcasm yet? I do appreciate the compliment though hehehehe....

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I think a couple of things are being left out of this equation...

The first being that very few scrolls in both Japan and China
Are actually made for using with Bonsai. This seems to be
A very important point that is totally being missed in this
Conversation...

It sounds like some of these ink paintings weren't designed to be art in the traditional sense (at least by Western standards) and more like a nice travel photo that you would see in a National Geographic - where an image is accompanied by a literal description, with information on the photographer, and perhaps as part of a broader description of a subject.

If I think of them in this way, I can see how they aren't really designed to be displayed with bonsai...

 

[Cadillactaste]

See...that is exactly what I was hoping for with this thread. The rules of thumb of scrolls and why some have so many chop marks and the reasoning behind it. (Not just bonsai related...but as a whole as to why it's done) that some of the marks represent a season...verses a person who also had their hands on designing the art. Is a new light that I hadn't considered.

It sounds like some of these ink paintings weren't designed to be art in the traditional sense (at least by Western standards) and more like a nice travel photo that you would see in a National Geographic - where an image is accompanied by a literal description, with information on the photographer, and perhaps as part of a broader description of a subject.

If I think of them in this way, I can see how they aren't really designed to be displayed with bonsai...

I agree...this sheds another light on the matter...and if I think of them in the way they were designed then it makes sense. Doesn't mean I would wish one for my own to display. Even if I didn't do bonsai...I am more into a simple is more gesture. But, if I understood what each mark represented...then I might be able to appreciate it more. But, in not understanding it brings confusion to me.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Curious...when my oldest was in 8th grade...I had a stamp made that is Chinese...that is of our last name. He took mandarin in 8th...and was disappointed when the school dropped the class because of lack of interest. So would that be considered a chop mark? (He isn't here so I can't ask him...surely he would know. Since his teacher thought it a cool gift I got him for Christmas that year) it has his Chinese zodiac animal carved on top of the stamp. It really is a piece of art just seeing it on paper.

 

[Cadillactaste]

His teacher stated it was his last name...a professor that the school brought in. Then skyped that class to other districts as well. I don't ever plan on using it...it was a gift given to my son. But you are correct it is on soapstone. He is a senior this year...he got that and an old mother of pearl tangram puzzle along with a book on the history of ancient puzzles. I picked it up on an antique site...the puzzle that is. The book has the same one dating it very old. (Though if it a reproduction I do not know)

 

[Cadillactaste]

Though it is interesting...the chops. The use for them...I appreciate everyone input so to make this more clearer to myself.

 

[jk_lewis]

Here, in MY opinion, is the ideal (type of) scroll for a bonsai display:

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t16074-autumn-acer-clump-installation

It SUGGESTS things and doesn't overwhelm.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here, in MY opinion, is the ideal (type of) scroll for a bonsai display:

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t16074-autumn-acer-clump-installation

It SUGGESTS things and doesn't overwhelm.

Wow...overwhelming is the first word that came to mind when I saw that scroll.
Here are a few images from Kobayashi's book that I feel are a bit more gracefully incorporated.

 

[jk_lewis]

Odd how people see things differently.

 

[Cadillactaste]

In an ideal world where one has a flat wall...I think they are all lovely. Though...I don't have one straight wall without a window. So...I am not sure I will even go the route with the scrolls. If I did...I would hang them so they hung centered under the upper shelf between the windows. Just for art's sake.

 

[kakejiku]

Wow...overwhelming is the first word that came to mind when I saw that scroll.
Here are a few images from Kobayashi's book that I feel are a bit more gracefully incorporated.

I can only comment on the third specifically because of the writing available. Which season is this? I would say late winter or very early spring. The bird in the painting is the uguisu or Japanese nightingale. The lone returning nightingale is the herald of spring soon arriving. The kusamono reinforces that. The plum will soon be blossoming.

If you did not notice the scrolls in these examples are primarily rinpo hyougu, which is classified as a semi-formal scroll design style...with variations of formality between them all.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I can only comment on the third specifically because of the writing available. Which season is this? I would say late winter or very early spring. The bird in the painting is the uguisu or Japanese nightingale. The lone returning nightingale is the herald of spring soon arriving. The kusamono reinforces that. The plum will soon be blossoming.

If you did not notice the scrolls in these examples are primarily rinpo hyougu, which is classified as a semi-formal scroll design style...with variations of formality between them all.

Hearing your description of it...is like hearing a story...brought it even more together as a whole. Making it even more beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

 

[kakejiku]

Here, in MY opinion, is the ideal (type of) scroll for a bonsai display:

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t16074-autumn-acer-clump-installation

It SUGGESTS things and doesn't overwhelm.

This display nails the autumn season squarely on the head...very well done in that regard.
There is usually a reason or symbolism behind allowing the bonsai to go into the scroll, and even then it is rarely put into the painting. There is no ma between the moon and tree. There is also one glaring difference between the scroll in this display and the four scrolls shown by Kobayashi.

 

[Cadillactaste]

There is usually a reason or symbolism behind allowing the bonsai to go into the scroll, and even then it is rarely put into the painting. There is no ma between the moon and tree. There is also one glaring difference between the scroll in this display and the four scrolls shown by Kobayashi.

Is the glaring difference that this scroll is hidden to a degree behind the tree itself? That is all that I can see...to my very ignorant eye of not knowing scrolls and such.

 

[jk_lewis]

There is nothing written in stone that says you MUST have a scroll, or MUST have a small object on display with your tree, or MUST . . .

Display your tree (or trees) how you think they look best.

 

[kakejiku]

Is the glaring difference that this scroll is hidden to a degree behind the tree itself? That is all that I can see....

Look at the Hashira or pillars (sides along the painting), and give it another try...

 

[Cadillactaste]

Look at the Hashira or pillars (sides along the painting), and give it another try...

Clueless...if it was a snake it would have bitten me. The only thing I can think of is the thickness of the frame around the original artwork that was posted by Jim. Surely that isn't it...

 

[kakejiku]

Clueless...if it was a snake it would have bitten me. The only thing I can think of is the thickness of the frame around the original artwork that was posted by Jim. Surely that isn't it...

No, you got it...the scroll that was posted on the link has normal size hashira. The ones attached by Van Fleet San have narrow hashira (pillars) or in other words the frame to the side of the painting.

How does that affect the display?