Ryan Neal article in The New Yorker

[rockm]

Is this even for real?????

yeah, it is. Scroll through Mirai's FB posts. It's on the one about the article. It was a half serious remark, I think.

 

[Lorax7]

Ryan was traumatized because of his "westerner" mentality.

No. He was traumatized because he experienced abuse, including physical violence. Japanese apprentices who experienced similar treatment would also be traumatized, regardless of whether or not they ever complained about the abuse afterward or forever remained silent about it to conform to societal expectations. The trauma is still there regardless.

 

[Maiden69]

No. He was traumatized because he experienced abuse, including physical violence. Japanese apprentices who experienced similar treatment would also be traumatized, regardless of whether or not they ever complained about the abuse afterward or forever remained silent about it to conform to societal expectations. The trauma is still there regardless.

ok...

 

[Sansokuu]

No. He was traumatized because he experienced abuse, including physical violence. Japanese apprentices who experienced similar treatment would also be traumatized, regardless of whether or not they ever complained about the abuse afterward or forever remained silent about it to conform to societal expectations. The trauma is still there regardless.

Abuse comes in many forms. We think usually of physical violence. But there is also emotional manipulation/abuse, and verbal abuse. Seems like Ryan had a taste of all three during those formative years in Japan, being a foreigner or not. The difference is perhaps he had access to better mental health care state side to cope with it. For as advanced Japan is, it has very poor mental health care and a lot of stigma towards mental illnesses. usually people deal with it by steeling themselves through or completely giving up and dealing with the fallout and implications of failure.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this New Yorker piece was part of his healing process, though perhaps not in the best taste in some people’s eyes.

 

[Sansokuu]

ooo, completely non-bonsai related but this statement is 1000% true. I have had severe back pain for at least the last decade, and while browsing FB I came upon an ad from Xero shoes. In the beginning, I thought it was utterly nonsense, but then I thought about when I was a kid, none of my shoes had any heels on them. I mostly used Vans, Chucks, and the most lift I had in a shoe was from my topsiders. Which may have 1/4" at the most. I decided to give Xero a try, and I can say that after a little over a year of using them, my back pain is almost 70% gone. I know there is damage in my back from the Army that will not go away, but the constant aches are almost tolerable now.

I’ll have to check those shoes out. For babies learning to walk they recommend shoes that are almost like socks with a protective sole so they can really feel the ground and let their feet flex. As our toddler is growing out of her shoes, the options are getting thicker and thicker unfortunately but she still gets plenty of barefoot time.

 

[Maiden69]

I’ll have to check those shoes out. For babies learning to walk they recommend shoes that are almost like socks with a protective sole so they can really feel the ground and let their feet flex. As our toddler is growing out of her shoes, the options are getting thicker and thicker unfortunately but she still gets plenty of barefoot time.

I don't know if they will have her size, but Naboso make some decent gripper socks. Also, my favorites growing up pre-teen... old style tai chi/kung fu shoes. I had a pair with rubber for the outside and a cotton for indoors.

https://www.amazon.com/Shoes8teen-Martial-Rubber-Canvas-Shoes/dp/B097C6ZTM3/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=kung%2Bfu%2Bshoes&qid=1669992242&sr=8-5&th=1&psc=1

 

[Brim Gribley]

It's one thing to work for free to gain access to skills and knowledge, and another to be physically and mentally traumatized for that privilege. One is acceptable and one is not. I can appreciate the historical context but just because "that's how it's always been done" does not justify it. Ryan could be exaggerating but from the article it sounds like there was physical maltreatment, and part of Kimura's thing was to beat people down psychologically. Seemingly, since Ryan still suffers from that experience today, this was an abusive relationship. I think we can acknowledge that this is how these things have historically played out -- and still do to a lesser extent -- but I doubt we should pretend that behavior is OK.

“Judging a teaching framework using different cultural background is a bit judgemental I feel” …wisely put.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Other than to say .I feel there is no place in modern society to warrant abusing other humans . And or a justification for it . Hopefully we will get there someday . I’ll leave the discussion of what went on . In Japan to others . I would like to add the high level of respect I had before the New Yorker article . For Ryan Neal has only increased greatly . To injure what he did and still become the professional he is . Especially to be so willing to share his knowledge and ability with others . He is a great teacher and artist to advance . North American bonsai . He truly is next level

 

[Shima]

I'd like to read the article. Maybe I could find it on ebay? What's the issue #
Thanks for any help.

 

[Sansokuu]

I'd like to read the article. Maybe I could find it on ebay? What's the issue #
Thanks for any help.

you can read it here: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/11/21/the-beautiful-brutal-world-of-bonsai

 

[Shima]

you can read it here: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/11/21/the-beautiful-brutal-world-of-bonsai

Thanks Mary!

 

[Shima]

Thanks Mary!

Do you know the issue number?

 

[Sansokuu]

Do you know the issue number?

Sorry no idea!

 

[pandacular]

As an artist, it takes a huge ego to be creative and buck the status quo. To swim upstream and tell the world there is something else to see. However, I’ve found that to be an effective teacher you need to leave your ego at home. To allow students to develop their own vision. Maybe he didn’t understand that and his is the only way?

I don’t believe this is true. One thing I’ve heard Ryan say is that Kimura considers his former apprentices who do not develop their own styles and methods to be failures.

 

[rockm]

Do you know the issue number?

The New Yorker November 21, 2022

A collection of articles about 21 from The New Yorker, including news, in-depth reporting, commentary, and analysis.

www.newyorker.com

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I like this article a lot - particularly how it ends with an introspective quote from Ryan. Sort of a "that which does not kill us makes us stronger" perspective. Ryan would not be Ryan without his experience with Kimura. If it was easy, everyone would do it. I will never be the artist Ryan is - because I have consciously made the decision that I am unwilling to make that kind of personal commitment to the art form. 15 hours per day, every day, for six years equates to 15.75 years of full-time work experience (8 hours per day, 5 days per week, two weeks vacation per year). Think about that for a moment. Imagine that commitment to training - for which you receive only marginal pay.

For comparison, one of the greatest composers in history, Franz Liszt, was known for his incredibly advanced technique which was developed when (at the age of 20) he holed up and practiced the piano for 8 hours per day for six years. Or about half of the hours Ryan practiced. Pianists are limited because practicing this much puts you at risk of causing permanent physical damage to your wrist and finger tendons - ending many important careers. Bonsai artists are apparently more adept at cross-training

 

[Shima]

The New Yorker November 21, 2022

A collection of articles about 21 from The New Yorker, including news, in-depth reporting, commentary, and analysis.

www.newyorker.com

Thanks rockm!

 

[clem]

Did he really work 15 hours per day ? It means that if he starts to work at 8.00 a.m he finishes at 11.00 p.m after 15 hours of work non stop ?
If he eats at lunch time for 1 hour, it means he finishes the day at midnight !? So it means that he would work in greenhouses with artificial lighting on early morning and late afternoon/evening/night.

 

[leatherback]

There might be a little bit of overplaying a hand here, but still, in this article it comes down to it:

The Beautiful, Brutal World of Bonsai

An American undergoes a gruelling apprenticeship to a Japanese master.

www.newyorker.com

For the next three years, Kimura worked seven days a week, from 8 a.m. to 11 p.m., without a single day off. His master at Tōju-En, Motosuke Hamano, harshly corrected his every error; Kimura says that his master even instructed him in how to walk. Kimura was given five minutes to finish meals. He was allowed no girlfriends, no alcohol, and no cigarettes. At night, he practiced the guitar and dreamed of being a rock star.

 

[Srt8madness]

Did he really work 15 hours per day ? It means that if he starts to work at 8.00 a.m he finishes at 11.00 p.m after 15 hours of work non stop ?
If he eats at lunch time for 1 hour, it means he finishes the day at midnight !? So it means that he would work in greenhouses with artificial lighting on early morning and late afternoon/evening/night.

Yup, many people work that long and that hard, it isn't uncommon. Different work ethic than in France.