Ryan Neil Bonsai show in Portland?

[rich415]

So I was at the BayArea bonsai associates show last night in Oakland and Ryan Neil was doing a demo. As he was working he started talking about Noeleanders trophy in Europe and the Ginko Awards and how they really kick started the improvements of Euro bonsai. He asked the crowd if we had something like that, would it help improve American Bonsai? ( he was bating us.)

He brought up the National Exhibit in Rochester, NY and mentioned that he would be driving the West Coast truck full of bonsai this year. Some people got a little riled (sp?) up and mentioned that it was too much of a hassle to take trees to NY. They said it wasn't really worth it. The general feeling in the room was that nobody really cared. Ryan said that the California trees were some of the best in the nation and need to be displayed on a larger scale (again I think he was bating the crowd). Again nobody really cared about taking their trees that far.

He then said, "what if i told you there would be an exhibit where the winning tree would get $10,000" Almost everybody rolled their eyes. Then he said that the first week of October 2013 he and Michael Haeghorn were going to put on such a show in Portland, OR. He said that they already have an "Art space" reserved.

Sorry for the long post but I thought some might be interested in hearing about this.


Rich

 

[crust]

So "such a show" means there will be a $10,000.00 winning purse at the Neil/Haeghorn show?

 

[Ang3lfir3]

my current understanding of this show however is that it is not open to just anyone... The national exhibition is open to anyone the only requirement is that their trees be accepted by the committee.

Michael and Ryan's show (as I have heard it ... so if I am wrong please forgive) is only open to "Bonsai Professionals" ... who decides who those professionals are is not being discussed .... this fits in with the comments that have been made to me about making sure "this material only gets in the hands of professionals" ... again no one is saying who is deciding who the professionals are ... tho they are implying that if you aren't a "professional" then you don't deserve it..... (I sure hope I am wrong on that part.. but all signs point that way)

Would I enter trees in such a show ... probably ... I'm sure I don't have any that are worthy of winning (not just yet) but I know I am capable of it ...

I believe the #1 concern in California is the stupid border issues ... I am sure this problem could and would easily be addressed if someone contacted Bill V. about the issues and if a conversation was opened about it ....

I wish the them the best in creating "Omiya village in America" and on creating a large west coast show... I believe we are in dire need of one and if anyone can get one going it would be them ... I hope however that they remember that Americans don't much appreciate elitism and such a thing will surely give people a bad vibe...

(let the flaming begin)

 

[Smoke]

If Kokufu was open to everyone...it would not be the premiere destination bonsai exhibit in the world......

I am not a professional nor do I have banzai worthy of that type of event, but I do appreciate a process that makes sure only the best are there.

 

[rich415]

He did not mention anything about Professionals only but that might be the case. I don't know how a professionals only show would work in America. Most "Professionals" (I.E. those who teach bonsai have day jobs) there are very few in the USA who only do bonsai and they might not even have the best trees at this moment. They certainly don't have the oldest trees.

The issue in California, I think, is the border and the distance. There is also such a stronger culture of bonsai here that many did not really seem to care about a National show. I know I am generalizing but this is what I have witnessed.

Rich

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I hope I didn't sound bitter because I am not .... okay well maybe a little ... but that is a different story

I still don't know why the Californians insist on snubbing the National Exhibition ... which has a process for making sure the best trees that are submitted are there ... so that should satisfy all the elitists ... unless they some how think by not participating they are in some way "showing them", which is insane ... heck they drive them across the country and bring them back.... in a refrigerated van ... what more do you want?

Anyways I wish Ryan and Michael the best of luck and would love to hear more about their event ... I'll certainly do my best to attend in whatever capacity that might be.

 

[reddog]

The only information I have heard regarding participants in this exhibit/show is for the bonsai tree to be owned by a professional or owned by an individual and worked/maintained by a professional. I for one look forward to bonsai in the U.S. moving to a higher level by such an exhibit.

California: there are many great trees in California that are excellent examples of bonsai. But it would be difficult for me to send a tree that I have developed over many years on a multi-stop trek from the west coast to the east coast. How long did last years trip take to N.Y.? 2 weeks?

 

[Ang3lfir3]

The only information I have heard regarding participants in this exhibit/show is for the bonsai tree to be owned by a professional or owned by an individual and worked/maintained by a professional. I for one look forward to bonsai in the U.S. moving to a higher level by such an exhibit.

California: there are many great trees in California that are excellent examples of bonsai. But it would be difficult for me to send a tree that I have developed over many years on a multi-stop trek from the west coast to the east coast. How long did last years trip take to N.Y.? 2 weeks?

I am of the mind that such an exhibit does not move bonsai in america to a higher level... it simply creates a NEED for some people to hire professionals to work on their trees if they want to enter such an event. I understand the point here is to create a market for bonsai professionals but I can't see how eliminating the work of someone who is not classified as a professional (who's going to decide who the professionals are?) but produces similar caliber work from such a show would in any way raise the caliber of bonsai in america. To assume that it would is irrational. The big thing is who decides who the professionals are? Who will be the keepers of the keys to the "cool kids" club.

We sent a tree from WA to NY last time .... A Satsuki in bloom! .... and yes it took 10-14 days round trip and it received great care during that time ... We will be doing it again (this time with two trees) and I suspect the trees will again get the best of care, with Ryan driving I expect it will be outstanding top notch care .

 

[rich415]

I am of the mind that such an exhibit does not move bonsai in america to a higher level... it simply creates a NEED for some people to hire professionals to work on their trees if they want to enter such an event. I understand the point here is to create a market for bonsai professionals but I can't see how eliminating the work of someone who is not classified as a professional (who's going to decide who the professionals are?) but produces similar caliber work from such a show would in any way raise the caliber of bonsai in america. To assume that it would is irrational. The big thing is who decides who the professionals are? Who will be the keepers of the keys to the "cool kids" club.

I hear ya. Maybe that's what they want. He made a reference to the Ginko awards and Noelanders. Does anybody know if this is how they are run?

I think that the way to lift the level of bonsai is to start with the structure the USA already has in place: local clubs. There are many really good regional shows around the USA. We are not Japan or Europe, we are much bigger. All four main islands of Japan are about the size of California. We cannot remake ourselves this late in the game. That does not mean we can't improve ourselves though. The organization in place would be the key.

Rich

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

lol... Ryan's going to be driving the west coast truck... so is the implication of fear, a lack of confidence in him? That would be kinda weird. I'd trust him with anything I owned, and in fact will be.

Elitism in Oregon seems like an oyxmoron for that state, as it's a pretty laid back kind of place. And I too am deeply curious about what body, specific to this contest, will decide who qualifies as a professional?

At least with the USNBE it's about the tree... not the names. I think Ryan is a very skilled artist, and likely a wonderful professional to work with... but this feels like a marketing strategy more than an effort to elevate the art. Assuming they stick with the assertions about what is qualified to enter. Maybe it could eventually evolve into something like that... but out the gate... it's going to be like singing to the chior (ie represent the clients they already have)... with the vast majority of people feeling snubbed by it.

Or better yet, maybe there will be a special before the show for "Get your tree prepped for the contest by these designated professionals, and you too can get an already great tree in."

Do I think that a professional can do amazing work on a tree before it goes into the show... you bet. But I've seen trees in CA who need no professional assistance whatsoever... because they are pretty smokin' hot. Which is a big kudo to what is happening in CA. I think it's short-sighted to do a professionals only contest, when what we need is just to get the wealth of trees on the west coast out in the open for all to see. In one place. Now THAT would be hot. Let it evolve organicly... the public will decide what it needs to become. I'd hate to see it fail to reach it's potential... because I would truly love to see it.

Sincerely and with no intent at offense to anyone,

V

 

[reddog]

I am of the mind that such an exhibit does not move bonsai in america to a higher level... it simply creates a NEED for some people to hire professionals to work on their trees if they want to enter such an event. I understand the point here is to create a market for bonsai professionals but I can't see how eliminating the work of someone who is not classified as a professional (who's going to decide who the professionals are?) but produces similar caliber work from such a show would in any way raise the caliber of bonsai in america. To assume that it would is irrational. The big thing is who decides who the professionals are? Who will be the keepers of the keys to the "cool kids" club.

We sent a tree from WA to NY last time .... A Satsuki in bloom! .... and yes it took 10-14 days round trip and it received great care during that time ... We will be doing it again (this time with two trees) and I suspect the trees will again get the best of care, with Ryan driving I expect it will be outstanding top notch care .

"Cool kids club?" Are you kidding me? Were you always the last kid picked for the dodge ball game in grade school? What is wrong with wanting to see American bonsai move to a higher level AND creating work for the professionals? This exhibit is not a government funded event where everybody will have the "right" to submit a tree. If you want to submit your trees for exhibit, continue to enter the regional events and the US National Exhibit. The regional and national events are great events. So what if you miss out on the show put on by Ryan/Hagedorn? there are other events for you to exhibit your work.

Trees from WA to NY: I'm sure your entry received good care last year. I just wouldn't want my trees in a dark bumpy truck for two week and then another two weeks on a return trip.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I hear ya. Maybe that's what they want. He made a reference to the Ginko awards and Noelanders. Does anybody know if this is how they are run?

Noelanders : copied from http://www.bonsaiassociation.be/en/trophy.php

Participation in this international exhibition and contest is free and open for everyone. Registration of a bonsai or kifu can be done by completing the registration form on line and mail the pictures of the bonsai to the secretary. The committee will make a first selection based on the accompanying pictures.

Ginkgo : copied from http://www.ginkgobonsai.be/awards-1.htm (emphasis mine)

It soon became THE place to be for every professional and amateur alike, and having had a tree selected for the event will remain a memorable moment for all of them.

Sounds like they aren't run that way ... Sounds just like how the committee runs the National Exhibition actually ...

I think that the way to lift the level of bonsai is to start with the structure the USA already has in place: local clubs. There are many really good regional shows around the USA. We are not Japan or Europe, we are much bigger. All four main islands of Japan are about the size of California. We cannot remake ourselves this late in the game. That does not mean we can't improve ourselves though. The organization in place would be the key.
Rich

I agree in many ways.... what I would think would be a wonderful way to promote bonsai in america .... would be another show closer to the west coast maybe in the years between the NBE would great... with some coordination across the two groups I think you could have great wide spread participation .... someplace more accessible to everyone .... we have a east coast show... a show in the midwest (ok well chicago is kinda midwest) and we need a west coast show.... the one thing all those shows have in common with the likes of Ginkgo and Noelanders is that they are open to anyone.... anyone willing to submit a great tree

So submit some great trees ... pretty painless process ....

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Trees from WA to NY: I'm sure your entry received good care last year. I just wouldn't want my trees in a dark bumpy truck for two week and then another two weeks on a return trip.

Two weeks was the WHOLE trip.... 5 days there.... 3 on display .... 5 back (hence the words ROUND TRIP)

re: being picked last (actually no I was usually picked in the middle after the strong arms I was fast and agile) .... regardless you are missing the point and I presume are blind to it... so I won't try and explain it to you...

 

[Ang3lfir3]

just because it could be easy to misunderstand my intent here....

I hope they do it.... I wish them well... and as I said I will attend in whatever fashion is suitable....

however if you think this will be the great white hope to elevate bonsai in america... think again .... it will take for more work than that ...

 

[bob shimon]

I spent the evening with Ryan last night, after the BABA show, talking til 2:00 a.m., working on my trees all day today with him, dinner and more talking til 10:30 p.m. At no time did he mentioned that the trees, for their show, had to be worked on or be owned by a professional. My understanding is that it is a juried show, and the trees must be accepted by a committee. He also mentioned that the venue has been narrowed down to two locations.

 

[Brian Underwood]

Thanks Bob, that could have gotten way out of hand...

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Further thinking on the notion of making this like Kokufu... Yes only professionals can bring the trees to be judged for entry, but how much of that tradition has evolved over certain ingrained cultural imperatives? I'm no expert on Japanese culture... but I am very aware of their sense of place and order in things. The awards go to the owners (which by the way have no monetary prize, let alone 10k), not the artist. In the show itself only the owners names are displayed with the trees, not the artist. But it is the artists who bring them for the pre-judge and take care of them through the whole process. If a tree was rejected, I wonder if it would be acceptible for the owner to have to take the shame of that directly.... (I'm musing outloud.. so bear with me.) Whereas, if the professional takes it, and the tree is rejected, the owner doesn't directly lose face.

In the US, we have a directly opposite take on nearly all of this... culturally and in bonsai. However much we have changed as a nation, we still like knowing we did something that is important to us on our own merit and effort. So is it relevent to try and frame it the same way? I have to think not. It doesn't resonate with anyone who isn't strictly a Japanese bonsai purist. But for those who want to do that, you should do as Doug Paul did... get a tree into Kokufu, it can be done. That's why I am glad the USNBE took the European style - an open exhibition. Bill was wise enough to know what would work in America. If the USNBE was a floating event, there'd be no need for an event like the proposed one, because all the CA people would contribute to that. I make no judgements about why it is or isn't a floating event... I'm just glad it exsists.

I've had a tree rejected for the USNBE before... and I had to take the bitter pill of it all on my own. It sure might have been nice to have someone else deal with it all, and let me down easy... but that's not how we do things generally. When I did get accepted with another tree, my joy in that was all the greater.

There is a place for professionals in American bonsai, and I don't think they are utilized enough on a direct basis... but many enthusiasts also don't live close by to them, because our country is so spread out. We get doses of them as often as we can in workshops and classes, but most people (and lets not forget most people don't want to pay $500 for a tree, let alone for a day with an artist among their trees) have to do it the hard way, which is on their own. What is telling about the matieral that can be had in the states, and the commitment of individuals, is that there are great trees already out there. More than we likely even know.

I have no doubt that a great many of the winners of this proposed event would likely come from trees which had been worked on by professionals... but I don't think that will always be the case... if it were given a chance to be an open event.

Thanks for bearing with me.

V

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

w00t! Thanks for that info Bob!! I'm not deleting my comment that I was writing when you wrote your note though...lol It's got some good bits.

V

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I spent the evening with Ryan last night, after the BABA show, talking til 2:00 a.m., working on my trees all day today with him, dinner and more talking til 10:30 p.m. At no time did he mentioned that the trees, for their show, had to be worked on or be owned by a professional. My understanding is that it is a juried show, and the trees must be accepted by a committee. He also mentioned that the venue has been narrowed down to two locations.

I have never in my life been so glad to be wrong ... my understanding was obviously stale ... and I thank you dearly for taking the time to chime in ...

I continue to look forward to the event and hope that it will do wonders for shining a light on bonsai on the west coast ...

 

[Walter Pall]

For your information Gingko used to be about trees in the first place and Noelanders Trophy is about trees in the first place. It does not matter who styled them, whether they are imported, collected or what and who owns them. They want the best possible trees at the show, period. At Gingko some individuals had so many good trees that they got permission to bring in more than a dozen while many had not even a single accepted tree due to quality reasons. Not everybody liked this but it certainly helped to raise the standard. At Noelanders everybody has the right to offer up to three trees. A committee makes sure that only the best pass and one might end up bringing one or none - or three. Everybody is allowed to offer trees and has a chance: amateurs, collectors, professionals, businesses. A sign next to the tree say who is the owner and who styled it.
From some conversation with Ryan I am sure what he said or meant was 'professionally done bonsai' vs. 'amateurish bonsai'. Most professionally done bonsai' in Europe are done by amateurs, just to let you know.