San Jose Juniper - How to work with its' characteristic "curl back"?

[エドガー]

I have an old San Jose, not sure.. maybe 10 years old (2-2.5" trunk), and more of a wide-style niwaki or garden tree, 4-5' wide and 2' tall. Bought it from a bonsai nursery for a good deal a year or so ago. I am also growing 11 successful cuttings from it.

I've read the SJ is known for having mature branches curl-back and grow-back into itself and point back towards the trunk... and, some of my old mature branches are definitely doing that. They are already old and thick, so training/bending outwards isn't possible.

I'm new to bonsai and also the SJ. And, I've always been curious about and how to deal with its' curling-back of branches in its' overall design, pruning, maintenance, etc.?
Do you just leave the curl-back-brances alone and style with it (with the foliage in the desired places of course) and include them in your design... or, should you try to stray away from curl-back (by wiring/training outwards from trunk and/or cutting off completely)?

 

[Adair M]

Pictures, please.

 

[Hartinez]

Def pictures. I’ve got a San Jose juniper and I’m not entirely sure what your talking about.

 

[エドガー]

It was a lot bushier last year (a lot of crotch/inner growth in-between the twigs inside the pads)... so in fall 2018, I spent 40-60mins per pad cleaning up crotch growth, brown/dead foliage, overcrowding, crossing twigs, etc. But, this spring, it has grown a lot again and is bushy again.

Here are some pics. As you can see, most of the pads&branches “curl back” onto itself, back towards the trunk, as it ages/grows.

Just wondering what to do with this as it gets older, bigger, grows and ages. Any major pruning, twig/branch selection, training/bending, recommended? (Ideally, more of a niwaki style is what I’m looking for... or, a rougher bonsai style more or less)
Only thing I’m doing is maintenance, tightening/reducing pad shape and cleaning up the insides of pads in Fall/Winter.


Also, another SJ topic...
I know this one is already grown as a naturally low-growing SJ... but, for my 11 cuttings, I’d like them to be tall “upright junipers”, maybe 4-6’ tall niwaki. Is upright style possible with a San Jose? How do I do that? Just train upright with a stake?

 

[エドガー]

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[エドガー]

I always see a lot of very nice, tall, upright niwaki junipers, trained with nice horizontal branches lateral pads and such, at House of Bonsai and also Akita Bonsai. 5’, 10’ and even some 15-20’ tall. I assume they are mostly Hollywood junipers.

But, is it possible to get that same upright and tall effect as those with a San Jose? Doesn’t need to be 15-20’ tall, lol. I’d be very happy with 4-6’ tall for a garden juniper niwaki.

 

[Adair M]

That tree was styled via “selective pruning”. Whoever pruned it at the nursery kept those branches that “curl back”, and removed the ones that moved the other way. I suppose they thought it gave it a somewhat windswept look.

 

[エドガー]

Can a SJ be made into a single-trunk 4-6' tall upright niwaki? (from the cuttings I'm growing)
Or, do you really need a Hollywood to do that? (I don't wanna get a Hollywood tho)

 

[Adair M]

Can a SJ be made into a single-trunk 4-6' tall upright niwaki? (from the cuttings I'm growing)
Or, do you really need a Hollywood to do that? (I don't wanna get a Hollywood tho)

Can? Yes.

Would it take forever? Yes.

Suggest: Foemina

 

[エドガー]

About how many years will each (SJ vs Hollywood vs Foemina) take to reach 4-6'? (given all things equal)

Also, is a Foemina naturally low/spread growing? (needs to be staked upright, correct?)
How is the Foemina trunk/branches as it ages? Very straight? ..or does it have the slight-bends/curves like an SJ?

I have two air-layered Sea Green junipers in pots (mother-plants disposed of, from a landscape excavation/remodel)... those have super duper straight trunks/branches. Not ideal.. but I kept them as they're my first air-layers.

 

[GGB]

Foemina is super straight upright. I love them and think they're highly under used, at least in my part of the US. I don't often see them for in landscape places or otherwise, maybe that's why

 

[エドガー]

Ah, I didn't know they (Foemina) grow upright. Thanks. Are they slow or fast growing?

I assume Hollywood is very fast growing from what I've read/seen (maybe twice or 1.5x as fast as SJ). Maybe I don't want that... as it might become too big over time (esp. for an in-ground garden tree) and too much maintenance.

Evergreen Gardenworks, Herons and a few others state that the SJ grows relatively fast. Correct? Esp compared to Japanese cultivars like Shimpaku.

 

[エドガー]

I really want to stick with the SJ... since I already have 11 cuttings from it.

Just wanting to know how to train them into upright niwaki... and also to know how long will it take. I will probably transfer them into 5-7gal nursery pots next spring.

 

[Adair M]

Foemina is what John Naka used to make Goshin.

I’m sorry, I don’t have any of the three junipers you are comparing. Hollywood has long stringy foliage. Because of that, it’s rarely used for bonsai. I see them in the Bay Area as large landscape plants. San Jose make good twisty trunk bonsai. Foemina grow arrow straight trunks and make great formal upright bonsai.

I think your San Jose cuttings will take a decade or more to get to waist high. Or more.

I’m sticking with Foemina as your best bet.

Google “Foemina juniper” to see examples.

 

[River's Edge]

Ah, I didn't know they (Foemina) grow upright. Thanks. Are they slow or fast growing?

I assume Hollywood is very fast growing from what I've read/seen (maybe twice or 1.5x as fast as SJ). Maybe I don't want that... as it might become too big over time (esp. for an in-ground garden tree) and too much maintenance.

Evergreen Gardenworks, Herons and a few others state that the SJ grows relatively fast. Correct? Esp compared to Japanese cultivars like Shimpaku.

I have found the shimpaku cuttings to be very vigorous when established. Considering that they will lend themselves to refinement you may wish to consider them as well. They are readily available and inexpensive.

 

[エドガー]

I've read about the famous Goshin before.

Ah yeah... I remember a lot of "pom-pom" poodle style junipers in SF and the Bay Area when I used to live there and also whenever I visit. So many of them there. I was always wondering in the back of my mind if they were Hollywood or SJ or some other juniper. I guess most likely Hollywoods, as all of them are very large.

A decade isn't too bad. I guess I'll wait. Should grow faster if in the ground or in a big nursery pot. Herons Bonsai said an SJ would grow huge and fast, esp if in the ground, in a few years. I'd rather have a slow growing tree anyways in the long run, than a high maintenance tree or one that grows way too large.

 

[エドガー]

Pruned that juniper today (last time I pruned it was about 1 year ago... so I guess it only needs 1 haircut per year)

I pruned it pretty hard this time. Also re-styled a bit since it never really had a definite leader/apex (it was a messy apex at best), and also lots of branches were going backward and curling onto itself, which bugged me.

I will train that new little extending apex to grow taller and into an S-shape informal-upright as it gets older (instead of its’ previous “wider and low” shape).

It was more trained/pruned as a niwaki before I got it - just hedged clouds/pads/clam-shell-shapes and not really intricately pruned and wired like a bonsai...so I did it more bonsai style this time.

 

[エドガー]

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