San Jose questions

[ABCarve]

Hello all. This is my San Jose I did for a class in 1992. After the initial carving and styling I mostly neglected it, just doing clip and grow and the occasional repot. #1 photo is Sept 2011 after reducing it in spring. Note the anemic back, bottom, left branch's and apex. These two branches never seem to develop! Spring 2012 it was put in a smaller pot and reduced again. I thinned the apex(hoping to stimulate it) and the bottom back was left alone. Neither developed!! Both of these components have hung on but have remained anemic, without gaining caliper for 20 years. Anyone know what's up with that? Is there a trick for stimulation?

 

[Stan Kengai]

What did the roots look like when you repotted last spring? Did they fill the pot? Were there lots of new white root tips? Were there some dead roots?

What and how often do you fertilize this plant?

Does this plant get full sun, and how many hours a day?

Does this plant often suffer from infestations of scale or mites?

What type of soil media is it in, and how large are the soil particles?

Are you trimming or pinching the foliage and how often?

All of these things affect your plant, and the more we know, the better we can help. It may be something as simple as using a coarser soil mix and fertilizing more often. Or it may be that the plant needs to go in the ground.

 

[ABCarve]

It's a healthy tree. The 2012 repotting reduced the roots in half or more. They were healthy, although I can't really say if there was a dead root or two, so much of it had to go. Fertilized? yes organic and dyna-grow once every 2 weeks. Full sun. The first picture kind of shows the health before repotting, but notice those two branches before and after. The new soil is a Hollow Creek Bonsai mixed with 30% akadama. I would call it medium/fine and very similar to what its been in other than the akadama for 20 years. Trim and pinch? In the 20 years I've had this, I've played with pinching, trimming or unimpaired, nothing seemed to change the vigor of those two branches. My hypothesis is the other foliage was too strong, sapping the strength from them, but that doesn't make sense. You would think the top would always have vigor. Everything else seems healthy, no bugs. I think coarser soil might be good suggestion, although I don't have a lot of experience with it...what's the mix? Not sure I want to repot again since it was done last spring. Might be able to just to slip it without reducing anything.

 

[october]

This is a beautiful tree. I think there are a couple of things you can do. Any branch that you want to grow and thicken, do not prune at all. If you let it grow freely, it will thicken up. Also, there is the route of putting it in a grow pot for a few years.

That first branch seems to be getting most of the energy. Maybe getting rid of it might send growth to the other parts of the tree. In the long run, that thick branch is only going to get thicker and will become more disproportionate to the tree. However, you could carve the bottom of that thick branch. It will look thinner and have a nice jin running along the bottom of the branch.

As far as the apex. In my opinion, you already have a decent apex started without that branch. I might consider removing that small apex branch and working with what is left.

In any case, the work you have done is really nice and the tree is a beautiful bonsai. I know that we always seem to want to make our bonsai better and better.

Rob

 

[jk_lewis]

Any chance there is dead wood below that branch? It may simply not be getting the needed nutrients because the pathway from the roots is impeded somehow.

 

[ABCarve]

That first branch seems to be getting most of the energy. Maybe getting rid of it might send growth to the other parts of the tree. In the long run, that thick branch is only going to get thicker and will become more disproportionate to the tree. However, you could carve the bottom of that thick branch. It will look thinner and have a nice jin running along the bottom of the branch.

As far as the apex. In my opinion, you already have a decent apex started without that branch. I might consider removing that small apex branch and working with what is left.

In any case, the work you have done is really nice and the tree is a beautiful bonsai. I know that we always seem to want to make our bonsai better and better.

Rob

Thank you so much for your kind words. I guess my strategy was to keep the big lower branch tightly pruned and let the upper part grow to let it get chubbier. The close up shows that tiny apex in the middle. It's just funny that it doesn't develop...20 years worth. I'm not ready to give up yet. Is there a pruning routine for these things? Timing, pinching, how much etc.? I really never played with it that much over the years and was wondering if it got where it is in spite of my ignorance of its grow habit. My bonsai knowledge is pretty basic and most has been by the seat of my pants. Now that I'm trying to actually refine what I have....I'm kind of in the dark. This site is very helpful to me. There's no one around here.

 

[ABCarve]

Any chance there is dead wood below that branch? It may simply not be getting the needed nutrients because the pathway from the roots is impeded somehow.

Here's a close up of the lower branch from the back. You can see the branch it's coming off of is pretty vigorous. The tree would have no lower back without it. My lower back went out years ago but this one has to stay.

 

[ABCarve]

Do you think I can slip pot it with some coarser soil without too much disruption?

 

[october]

I think it could be slip potted, as long as it was not repotted and root pruned within the last year or so. Also, looking at it again. I do think a larger grow pot would help, but may not help a lot. The thing is that I don't think it is you, it is the tree. San Jose are known for awful foliage. Which is why people, very often graft other types, like shimpaku foliage, onto it. they have nice trunks that grow fast though.

From my personal experience. San Jose are, as the general opinion goes, tough to work with. The foliage is course, leggy and immature. I have 2 san joses. One I started training last year and I have hope for it. The other one not so much. After a few years with the the possible hopeless one. I realized that the foliage was difficult to manage. Even proper pruning seem to lead to the tree not responding. I ended up letting it grow back into a complete bush and then cut it back and started over again. Anyway, a couple of years later, the tree aquired a fungal disease which has nearly killed it. The design is almost completely ruined. Even though the tree survived, it will need years and/or a complete restyling. Even still it may never become a nice bonsai again.

Rob

 

[ABCarve]

Well...I did root prune it quite a bit last spring to get it into the smaller pot. Most my tree have the large pot problem which I'm working on. They were easier to take care that way. I think my best bet is to just let it grow out a year and then get into a deeper pot (spring 2014). It seemed to be happy in that first one. It's nice to know I'm not the only one having problems.

 

[ABCarve]

One other question.... Does anyone use pigments on the deadwood? I wanna try adding some real color to it. I was looking a some real bristle cone pines and they are not bleach white. Beautiful oranges and blues.

 

[Stan Kengai]

Well, it appears that you're doing everything right. I don't have any experience with this species, so I can't comment on the plants natural tendencies, but Rob's comments seem poignant. Your bottom branch looks like it is rather shaded by the upper branches. You might want to try thinning those upper branches to let more light into the bottom. My only other recommendation would be to get it into a larger pot (wider, but not deep) with an open/coarse soil mix in your next repotting.

As far as coloring your deadwood, I've seen people add "india ink" to lime sulfur to tone it down and give some shadowing. I imagine you could add other dyes or pigments to lime sulfur, but they would have to be rather chemically inert. You certainly don't want to add anything acidic to lime sulfur because it will produce hydrogen sulfide!. Bad stuff in high concentrations (neuro- toxin).

 

[ABCarve]

As far as coloring your deadwood, I've seen people add "india ink" to lime sulfur to tone it down and give some shadowing. I imagine you could add other dyes or pigments to lime sulfur, but they would have to be rather chemically inert. You certainly don't want to add anything acidic to lime sulfur because it will produce hydrogen sulfide!. Bad stuff in high concentrations (neuro- toxin).

Actually what I was thinking of doing was using watercolor pencils over the lime sulfur after it had bleached the deadwood white. It would give a fairly nice white surface to start with. my deadwood has some punky areas in it and planning to coat it all with a low viscosity epoxy (git- rot) once the wood dried out enough to firm it up and protect it. I think the low viscosity epoxy would mostly just soak into the wood without leaving too much of a film on it. It would also fix the watercolor in place. If it was a little too shiny scotch brite might fix that. I'm more worried about the color change from the epoxy coating. The difference between unfinished and finished furniture. Maybe I should experiment on some driftwood first.....hmmm.

 

[ABCarve]

update

Thought I'd post an update to show how the epoxy and watercolor worked on the driftwood. The coloration (orange and blues) was a bit more intense at first. I thought it was taking away from the bark by reducing the contrast between them so I scrubbed some off. I really like how the epoxy worked. Everything is much firmer . It was a bit shiny but I lightly hit it with a rotary wire brush. The sun has cooked off the rest of the shine. Algae still grows on it near the soil line but can be easily removed with water and a tooth brush.

I still don't really know how to manage the foliage. I like the juvenile growth. Is there a way to encourage it so its all juvenile? Some bits of adult growth has juvenile growing from the tip. Do you cut those off? Some adult growth is green but doesn't grow whatsoever.

 

[Dav4]

I still don't really know how to manage the foliage. I like the juvenile growth. Is there a way to encourage it so its all juvenile?

Just prune away the adult foliage when it shows up. Great tree, love the deadwood.

 

[wireme]

I have to say for basic knowledge and seat of the pants, keeping the tree alive for 20 yrs and looking as good as it does is an impressive accomplishment. Well done. I am not going to add to others advice re: strengthening the weak areas but I will say that the first sentence in your quote that I copied above is probably a big part of the reason you've done well with this tree. So many trees never make it to 20 yrs because they get played with too much.
Sweet tree.
Mp

 

[Poink88]

Nice tree.

How attached are you to that bottom right (thick and long) branch?

 

[october]

San Jose foliage can be tough to manage. Both from a pruning and aesthetic point of view. Most of the time, people want mature foliage. However, I agree with you in this instance that the juvenile foliage seems to complement this tree very well. As far as parts that are green and never grow. That is just what san jose does sometimes. It can happen if the area was pruned improperly at one time. They can be very stubborn.

This tree is beautiful and I think that anyone would be proud to have it on their benches. You have done a great job on this tree. I think just cleaning up some of the interior foliage, such as in the crevaces or foliage growing underneath the branches might be good. Just to let light and air circulation. Advice can be very beneficial. However, trust your instincts on what you think about this tree. The proof is in the picture. You have done a great job with this tree.

Rob

 

[ABCarve]

Nice tree.

How attached are you to that bottom right (thick and long) branch?

How attached are you to your bottom right

I find its asymmetry the most interesting part of the tree other than the carving. It's healthy and supporting the rest of the tree. Why would I mess with it? Cutting or carving would be a set back as far as I'm concerned. My long term plan is to harmonize the rest of the tree with it.

 

[ABCarve]

San Jose foliage can be tough to manage. Both from a pruning and aesthetic point of view. Most of the time, people want mature foliage. However, I agree with you in this instance that the juvenile foliage seems to complement this tree very well. As far as parts that are green and never grow. That is just what san jose does sometimes. It can happen if the area was pruned improperly at one time. They can be very stubborn.

This tree is beautiful and I think that anyone would be proud to have it on their benches. You have done a great job on this tree. I think just cleaning up some of the interior foliage, such as in the crevaces or foliage growing underneath the branches might be good. Just to let light and air circulation. Advice can be very beneficial. However, trust your instincts on what you think about this tree. The proof is in the picture. You have done a great job with this tree.

Rob

Rob- Thank you for the encouragement!!!! I have a montra, "it will make itself evident". It works quite well if you're patient enough. And patience is nothing more than time + desire. If you have both you're on your way. HOWEVER...the little tips that everyone brings to the table adds to the "it" and I thank you all for "it".