sand???

markyscott

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I think the key to maintaining air space is to make sure the particle size is uniform.

Back to the bucket of golf balls analogy. The air voids are the spaces between the golf balls.

Sand, if it is a fairly uniform particle size, even a fine sand will have a fair amount of air voids if the particle size is uniform.

If there is a range of particle sizes, the finer particles will fill the voids.

For myself, anything that goes through a peice of window screen is too fine to use. The components don't matter that much. Uniformity of particle size does.

Vance is right, what you use is not that important if you figure out what the watering frequency needs to be.

Soil permeability depends on three variables:
  1. Grain shape: Rounded grains will increase drainage and decrease water retention.
  2. Grain size: Larger average grain size will increase drainage and decrease water retention.
  3. Sorting: A more uniform grain size will increase drainage and water retention.

Scott
 
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Does anyone intentionally add clay to their soil mix? I would think a few small chunks mixed in a particulate substrate would help buffer moisture and fertilizer with the high cec. I have also imagined watering with a light clay slurry no thicker than dirty water. I know the frustrations of trying to remove heavy clay soil but wonder if a bit of clay in moderation could be used without clogging.
 
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Rather than thinking about what is "best", I think what you should consider that the substrate you use goes hand-in-hand with the care you have to give. They aren't separable. I like to use a well-draining, low CEC, inorganic mix. Doing so increases aeration, reduces the risk of overwatering, reduces soil compaction, and gives me more control over the availability of fertilizer. But that also means I have to fertilize and water much more frequently. If you add organics you tend to increase water retention, increase CEC, and decrease drainage which, in turn, changes your watering and fertilizing regimen. So instead of thinking about the "best" mix (that always causes these threads to go down in flame wars), think instead about what would work for the care you can give in your environment. In the dog days of summer in Houston (zone 9a), some of my trees need to be watered three times a day.

People grow trees successfully in many different substrates, but you'll find people reluctant to make a recommendation to you because your success with their mixture depends on variables outside of their control. Namely you and your local climate.

Scott


I use what I have available here which is not much. The last mix I made was with granite chicken grit, permatill, turface and decomposed pine bark all one part except for the the bark which I use a half part. It drains very well, and in my opinion it holds water for just the right ammount of time.this is however the first time I've heard of the CEC. Knowing about that now I'm considering playing with more organics,. I am however concerned that if I use compost or peat moss that it will impede my drainage. I suppose the low cec Of my soil mix can be overcome by increased fertilization making the cec essentially a wash.
 

markyscott

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I use what I have available here which is not much. The last mix I made was with granite chicken grit, permatill, turface and decomposed pine bark all one part except for the the bark which I use a half part. It drains very well, and in my opinion it holds water for just the right ammount of time.this is however the first time I've heard of the CEC. Knowing about that now I'm considering playing with more organics,. I am however concerned that if I use compost or peat moss that it will impede my drainage. I suppose the low cec Of my soil mix can be overcome by increased fertilization making the cec essentially a wash.

If you've found something thats working for you, I wouldn't change it just to increase the CEC of your soil. Besides, if you're using pine bark, you've already got a high CEC component.

Everything's a trade-off anyway. With a high CEC you won't need to fertilize as much. With a low CEC, you'll have to fertilize more but you'll have better drainage and more control over when and how much fertilizer your trees receive. It's your choice. I use fertilizer cakes supplemented by liquid every week, but I use a low CEC substrate and water very frequently.

Scott
 

Dan W.

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These articles may have been shared already as there have been several discussions on soil lately, but to be honest I don't bother reading most of them. Thanks Dario, I learned quite a bit about CEC from the articles you shared. -- In this one Collin Lewis mentions the CEC of many of our inorganic soil components. The other articles are certainly worth reading, but this one applies very well to our discussion here. (What we've been discussing as "sand" he calls "grit.")


http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/soils2.html
 

Vance Wood

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These articles may have been shared already as there have been several discussions on soil lately, but to be honest I don't bother reading most of them. Thanks Dario, I learned quite a bit about CEC from the articles you shared. -- In this one Collin Lewis mentions the CEC of many of our inorganic soil components. The other articles are certainly worth reading, but this one applies very well to our discussion here. (What we've been discussing as "sand" he calls "grit.")


http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/soils2.html

I tried to post you a PM but your inbox was full
 

Dan W.

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Thanks Vance, I made some room.
 

GrimLore

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That Sakrete traction grit I mentioned would be classified as River Sand. I just use that instead of paying large dollars at the Stone Sales place. :p
 

Vance Wood

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That Sakrete traction grit I mentioned would be classified as River Sand. I just use that instead of paying large dollars at the Stone Sales place. :p

I would like to see the stuff but it sound like a good option.
 

pmalelis

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I would like to see the stuff but it sound like a good option.
yes, tubesand and we would call it, we sell quickrete version at my job, is a mixed particle size sand anywhere from 1/32 to 1/8" sand. I was looking at it last yr as it is only around 3 bucks for 40#. Seems as thought you could sift and get a decent amount of the particle size you may need.
 

GrimLore

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yes, tubesand and we would call it, we sell quickrete version at my job, is a mixed particle size sand anywhere from 1/32 to 1/8" sand. I was looking at it last yr as it is only around 3 bucks for 40#. Seems as thought you could sift and get a decent amount of the particle size you may need.

This is even more course and has small pebbles in it I will try to photo a sample and the bag later today;)
 

GrimLore

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This is even more course and has small pebbles in it I will try to photo a sample and the bag later today;)

Seems the last lot had no pebbles in it and the wife has been adding them using natural fish gravel. I did not dig into it but the could have settled to the base of the bag. It is the traction sand but not in a tube but a 50 pound sack. Still is a very course grit though and certainly not expensive.
 
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The sand that has been used is #12 sand that can be found at stone yards that provide concrete products. However, although John Naka is the Grandfather of Bonsai, I think there are better products like lava rock, scoria etc. Sand, I've found, stays too wet and I like to water often and have the water go right through.

JC
 

Vance Wood

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The sand that has been used is #12 sand that can be found at stone yards that provide concrete products. However, although John Naka is the Grandfather of Bonsai, I think there are better products like lava rock, scoria etc. Sand, I've found, stays too wet and I like to water often and have the water go right through.

JC

Your sand is not coarse enough. The finer the sand the more it is likely to retain water. As to #12 sand I have no clue what that might be.
 
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#12 is the grade of sand (I believe it's 1/12th of an inch). I agree the smaller sand retains more water. With all the modern substrates available, I don't use sand.

JC
 

GrimLore

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Sand like the traction mix is cheap and very functional. In this lot I did not find any pebble but as I mentioned earlier it probably has just settled to the bottom of the bag. After further discussion with my Wife I was informed that she has repotted most of her tropical after noting the success with the Plum tree and will be repotting the balance next Spring with the same mix. With a small amount of small crushed stone or gravel the drainage is great and I must mention I have the time for multiple daily watering. That and 10 day liquid 20-20-20 feedings x3 recommended dosage and all seems happy.
Next season I am going to automated watering so I see it as a no nonsense win - win. At that point I am going to go to an even heavier feeding if I can work out a simple way to introduce it to the mister systems.
 
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