Sargent Juniper Seedling

[Dorian Fourie]

I received a Juniper seedling in Nov 2015 and was told that it Sargent Juniper Variegated Seedling. (It could be wrong)

Over the last year I have left it to grow and it is coming along nicely. My end goal for the tree is a formal upright as per the image below that I found on the net.

This is a Blaauw Juniper by Wally Kunimoto taken in 2011 and what I would like to achieve.


This is the seedling as I got it in Nov 2011


This is the seedling now.


Can anybody advise me on the growing habits of this tree or give me a very good website on pruning tips etc to be able to achieve my goal

Thanks

 

[Jeremy]

To my understanding, in Australia this is a common name for Shimpaku Juniper, or at the very least, another similar variety of Juniperus Chinensis. Allow it to continue growing to obtain mature foliage which should be nice and compact. You're aware of all the usual suspects at the nut, check out @Brian Van Fleet posts/blog for correct pruning techniques. Nice vision for the tree, with your skills it should come to fruition in a few more years. Consider growing some low sacrifice branches which can be used to great effect in the long term if worked into jin/shari.

 

[Dorian Fourie]

To my understanding, in Australia this is a common name for Shimpaku Juniper, or at the very least, another similar variety of Juniperus Chinensis. Allow it to continue growing to obtain mature foliage which should be nice and compact. You're aware of all the usual suspects at the nut, check out @Brian Van Fleet posts/blog for correct pruning techniques. Nice vision for the tree, with your skills it should come to fruition in a few more years. Consider growing some low sacrifice branches which can be used to great effect in the long term if worked into jin/shari.

Thanks so much Jeremy. I appreciate it. I will definitely look at Brian's posts for help

 

[augustine]

Dorian,

Don't do anything for a couple of years, let it grow. Don't want to discourage you but realistically this tree is years, maybe more than a decade, away from the bonsai you want. That being said, continue to grow and develop the plant.

Remember the best approach is to find something large and cut it down. (Not starting small and growing it up.) Can you find a bigger tree?

These are just the facts of life in bonsai.

 

[sorce]

best approach

A approach.

But after recently seeing this...

I just can't agree with "best".

Glad to see you posting again Augustine.

My other thoughts Dorian...

Seems like you have enough growth to study for a good understanding of its habits already.....I think that counts for more than anything else.

Too...

I didn't have mites all year...
Got complacent...
Stopped making daily checks....
(for mites particularly)
Noticed way too late...
Now my Sargent might not make it through winter.

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

The Juniper we know as Shimpaku is actually a sub species of Sargent Juniper. The tree you show here is probably a cutting of Chinese Juniper we call Sargent Juniper. The Sargent Juniper is a difficult tree to grow as a bonsai due to the fact that almost anything you do to the tree will cause it to revert to Juvenile (needle) growth abandoning the scale (rope growth) for a season. This tree will abandon entire branches at the drop of a hat or change in almost anything. I don't mean to discourage your efforts, you can continue with this tree and just realize the short comings of the tree.

The idea that a bonsai should be cut down from a larger tree is correct. If you decide to go down that road seek out the cultivar of Shimpaku called Kishu. This cultivar is easy to deal with. It puts out the finest and most stable growth, in my opinion, of the Shimpakus. It takes a lot of abuse before it reverts to juvenile growth and is fairly easy to grow from cuttings.


This is the beginnings of a cascade Shimp started this last summer.



This is a Shimpaku cutting I started several years ago and moved it into a pot I particularly took a liking to as a Mame size accent plant for some larger tree.



This is a repot of a Shimpaku I originally entered into an on line contest from a now defunct bonsai forum a number of years ago. I repotted this this summer.

This is the same tree from early this spring while still in bronze winter color.

 

[Dorian Fourie]

Dorian,

Don't do anything for a couple of years, let it grow. Don't want to discourage you but realistically this tree is years, maybe more than a decade, away from the bonsai you want. That being said, continue to grow and develop the plant.

Remember the best approach is to find something large and cut it down. (Not starting small and growing it up.) Can you find a bigger tree?

These are just the facts of life in bonsai.

Hi Augustine

Unfortunately these junipers are not readily available here in South Africa and I am always keeping my eyes open for a nice size one but no luck.

I have no problem with it growing for the next 10 years as long as I know that what I am doing for the next 10 is correct and not messing it up.

I found this article on Peter Tea Bonsai
https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/shimpaku-clean-up-and-styling/

Do you know if his advice is any good?

 

[Dorian Fourie]

I didn't have mites all year...
Got complacent...
Stopped making daily checks....
(for mites particularly)
Noticed way too late...
Now my Sargent might not make it through winter.

Will definitely keep my eye open for that Sorce

Thanks for the video link. Going to watch it shortly

 

[Dorian Fourie]

The Juniper we know as Shimpaku is actually a sub species of Sargent Juniper. The tree you show here is probably a cutting of Chinese Juniper we call Sargent Juniper. The Sargent Juniper is a difficult tree to grow as a bonsai due to the fact that almost anything you do to the tree will cause it to revert to Juvenile (needle) growth abandoning the scale (rope growth) for a season. This tree will abandon entire branches at the drop of a hat or change in almost anything. I don't mean to discourage your efforts, you can continue with this tree and just realize the short comings of the tree.

The idea that a bonsai should be cut down from a larger tree is correct. If you decide to go down that road seek out the cultivar of Shimpaku called Kishu. This cultivar is easy to deal with. It puts out the finest and most stable growth, in my opinion, of the Shimpakus. It takes a lot of abuse before it reverts to juvenile growth and is fairly easy to grow from cuttings.
View attachment 124734

This is the beginnings of a cascade Shimp started this last summer.

View attachment 124735

This is a Shimpaku cutting I started several years ago and moved it into a pot I particularly took a liking to as a Mame size accent plant for some larger tree.

View attachment 124736

This is a repot of a Shimpaku I originally entered into an on line contest from a now defunct bonsai forum a number of years ago. I repotted this this summer.

This is the same tree from early this spring while still in bronze winter color.
View attachment 124737

Thanks so much Vance

I appreciate the feedback.

 

[petegreg]

I found this article on Peter Tea Bonsai
https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/shimpaku-clean-up-and-styling/

Do you know if his advice is any good?

Yes, that's a very reliable source of info. All his pages...
What you can do...you can wire the trunk and set some curves, take an opportunity till it's young. Plus wiring branches you want to keep for design or deadwood. It will open the interior to the light. And let it grow.

 

[Dorian Fourie]

Yes, that's a very reliable source of info. All his pages...
What you can do...you can wire the trunk and set some curves, take an opportunity till it's young. Plus wiring branches you want to keep for design or deadwood. It will open the interior to the light. And let it grow.

Thanks so much for the advice. I am wanting to grow a formal upright (as per the image on my first post) so should I be wiring the trunk?

 

[petegreg]

Thanks so much for the advice. I am wanting to grow a formal upright (as per the image on my first post) so should I be wiring the trunk?

Oh, overlooked it, sorry. In future if it needs chopping or hight reduction the new leader will need it. Not for now, only branches.

 

[Anthony]

Two situations -

Thanks @sorce --------------- 50 years - seed - pot grown - beautiful tree - @William N. Valavanis
THANK YOU SIR ---------------------- inspiration !!!!!!!!!!!


[b ] Mr.W. Kunimoto's tree seems to be based on thirds and I wonder how tall ?

So would the idea be to grow the central leader up to a previously measured height - say 21 inches [ 53 cms ]
divided by three ?
Just cutting off the branches one does not need ?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[M. Frary]

Mr.W. Kunimoto's tree seems to be based on thirds

Like most good bonsai.

 

[sorce]

50 years

Ha! And I was thinking 40 From a cutting!

Frigging amazing yes!

It allows a clear look at the line that separates visual pleasure, which many trees give...
And the pleasure from just knowing what a feat has been accomplished.

I take more pleasure in the feat.

A feat that only few have accomplished.
A feat that....
will allow me to segue this into what I wanted to say to Vance earlier, since the greatness of this feat is now apparent, the compliment can shine over the possible confusion of internet dickheadedness....

The idea that a bonsai should be cut down from a larger tree is correct.

The Compliment....

Vance, in your firm belief of this statement, I think you may have missed that you have completely mastered growing stuff out.

Technically....

You cut stuff down to something no one would ever expect to become a bonsai one day. I think you've said it yourself in different words. Those doubters...

Anyway...those doubters, they, like myself, have become righteous followers, and this is really for us, so we understand......

Never an instant Bonsai! Ever!

Somehow, this was supposed to be an understanding of how growing stuff from seed is somewhat parallel to a chop and 40 year regrow....

In half the situations, the results could take the same time....

But it turned into me wondering what a seed, as planted by the Plaid Suited young Vance, would look like now.

Friggin Amazing!

I am clearly in rant mode today.
Apologies.

Through it...

I realize that if we keep the path,
Any path,
Any person,
Any tree,

We can make it excellent.

Here's to YOUR path!

Sorce

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

That looks like a procumbens, and not a shimpaku, or it would have the scaly foliage as shown in Vance's photos. They are both in the species Juniperus chinensis. Some varieties tend to grow more juvenile (needle-like) foliage. Shimpaku is a variety that grows more mature (scale-like) foliage. More reading on the topic is here.

If you're going for the formal upright image in your first post, then let it keep growing for a few more years, and if it gets top-heavy and starts leaning, you'll need to stake it upright. Looks healthy so far, so keep at it!

 

[Vance Wood]

That looks like a procumbens, and not a shimpaku, or it would have the scaly foliage as shown in Vance's photos. They are both in the species Juniperus chinensis. Some varieties tend to grow more juvenile (needle-like) foliage. Shimpaku is a variety that grows more mature (scale-like) foliage. More reading on the topic is here.

If you're going for the formal upright image in your first post, then let it keep growing for a few more years, and if it gets top-heavy and starts leaning, you'll need to stake it upright. Looks healthy so far, so keep at it!

I agree with Brian, but I don't believe the tree is Procumbens. It is, I believe, Juniperus Chinensis Sargentii. It does have foliage that looks like Procumbens but a bit more open and blue like this one. I have one of these trees in my landscape that has been there for many years but never much in the way of adult foliage. When I worked for Franks nursery many moons ago we used to carry Sargents Juniper. I had one for about ten to fifteen years and it behaved very much like I described earlier in this thread. You could never get the tree to develop secondary and tertiary growth. The tree would do well for three or four years then it would start to abandon foliage and branches. A lot of people are not particularly familiar with the tree because it is such a terrible choice for bonsai culture---in my experience-----and perhaps the fault was mine. However I have not seen it anywhere outside of California and Michigan.

 

[Dorian Fourie]

That looks like a procumbens, and not a shimpaku, or it would have the scaly foliage as shown in Vance's photos. They are both in the species Juniperus chinensis. Some varieties tend to grow more juvenile (needle-like) foliage. Shimpaku is a variety that grows more mature (scale-like) foliage. More reading on the topic is here.

If you're going for the formal upright image in your first post, then let it keep growing for a few more years, and if it gets top-heavy and starts leaning, you'll need to stake it upright. Looks healthy so far, so keep at it!

Thanks so much Brian. Definitely not a procumbens but I do agree that the resemblence is there. I have a few procumbens and there is a distinct difference. Thanks for the link and the advice. Watch this space 40 yrs from now - LOL

 

[Dorian Fourie]

I agree with Brian, but I don't believe the tree is Procumbens. It is, I believe, Juniperus Chinensis Sargentii. It does have foliage that looks like Procumbens but a bit more open and blue like this one. I have one of these trees in my landscape that has been there for many years but never much in the way of adult foliage. When I worked for Franks nursery many moons ago we used to carry Sargents Juniper. I had one for about ten to fifteen years and it behaved very much like I described earlier in this thread. You could never get the tree to develop secondary and tertiary growth. The tree would do well for three or four years then it would start to abandon foliage and branches. A lot of people are not particularly familiar with the tree because it is such a terrible choice for bonsai culture---in my experience-----and perhaps the fault was mine. However I have not seen it anywhere outside of California and Michigan

Thanks so much Vance. I am sure you are 100% right with your advice on the type and growth habits. I am going to leave it to grow of the next few years and just watch how it goes. It is happy in its colander and not in the way so it must just grow. I will fertilize the hell out of it that way it can grow like mad.

Thanks once again.

 

[Anthony]

Dorian, it might be better in the colander, in the ground.
Try not to encourage it to grow too fast, the heartwood would be soft and easily decayed or eaten.
Best of growing.
Good Day
Anthony