Satsuki 2nd attempt, advice much appreciated!

[kale]

Just got these in the mail today and super excited! Last year I killed two and I believe its because I bare rooted them right out of the package (around this time of year, a few weeks later actually. They were flowering way more than these). Several othe things I did wrong too like didnt protect them enough in the cold, didnt wire them into their pots, etc. Anywho, It looks like these are planted in pure peat moss(?). Should I repot them into a well draining mix, leave them be for this year, slip pot them into something? Any advice would be much appreciated! Thanks!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Ok, warning! Be aware any soil discussion can go sideways quick! This is just about my experience.

I have a number of prebonsai Satsuki, a couple of bonsai in refinement and some in the ground to grow out more.
I’ve spent a good bit of time researching soil types for both. I overwinter bonsai and bonsai in a cold frame.

My recommendation would be if you are going to repot this time of year, which is later than optimal... is to repot in 70% kanuma and 30% chopped sphagnum.
I’d repot, but I’m in the Pacific Northwest.

Have the kanuma mostly smaller grained with some larger mixed in and on the bottom. I used this mix on a bonsai that suffered from root rot and it brought that baby back to life in 5 months
Jonas D at Bonsai Tonight sells the stuff. I think he’s still got some in stock. https://store.bonsaitonight.com/collections/bonsai-soil/products/kanuma-free-shipping

An alternative mix would be pure peat moss... but it’s gotta be non milled peat, the kind that breaks with difficulty into chunks. Use small chunks, but not powder. It’s a bit tricky. The only brand in the US that I’ve found that has this is the Sunshine brand and the latest bag I got was about 70% useable. Some folks report getting less then 40% useable. You could slip pot into this. I’m not sure how this mix would overwinter, but other people do plant azaleas in pure peat including Walter Pall.

The biggest challenge to begin with on a total repot that it would be best if you washed off most of the peat if you use kanuma. I do it using a hose sprayer with medium spray. The roots are awful fine so go slow and be careful not to damage them. On a repot in CO I’d not cut too many roots this time. Go for a deeper training pot then you would use. Next time put it in the Bonsai pot... which btw will always be deeper for Satsuki and other azaleas then other bonsai. I actually planted high for mine. Maybe it all goes optimal and you can then repot in a bonsai pot in the spring or next..

For either soil you will have to spray the top of the soil over time to get the kanuma/sphagnum or peat thoroughly wetted at first-then you can carry on with a gentle flush.

I don’t wire the roots tightly, just barely snug.
Finally find a good place to bootstrap the Satsuki into the environment. Like I said it’s gonna be tricky this time of year and likely that will take 3-4 weeks. I have mine in afternoon shade most of the time.

Remember that azaleas like to be moist at all times, but not soaking and either media will do a good job if you water carefully.
Finally think now about how you are going to winter over these plants.

Oh yes, and this may break your heart, but it would be best not to let the Satsuki flower much next year. Give it a year to grow strong.

One resource I use is the Bay Area Satsuki Aikokai site
I have a number of books on Satsuki... I like Bonsa Techniques for Satsuki by Naka etc, but there is a great book by Callahan... it’s pricey!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[kale]

Thanks @Deep Sea Diver for all the input! Also, I want to thicken the trunks. Do you know if I should just place them in a slightly larger pot like most other trees?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

You are welcome.

From my experience, if you pot Satsuki's in media that they like and treat the trees right, they'll put on girth, roots and grow leaves fairly quickly. I read some folks repot yearly with a larger pot if they are trying to push the trunk. You could try that if that's your goal. Probably wouldn't prune too heavily at first if this is so. Keep in mind the azaleas generally grow weak on top and strong on the base.

At this point, my main goal upon receiving a new tree is to create a place where the tree is happy and learn to keep each that way. That's a journey in itself. IF you do, the trunk will grow strongly. While this is happening I work on creating a basic plan about building its form and trimming properly once I get them happy.

My thought is your main concern is to get your Satsukis in a place that each azalea thrives and survives in a very healthy condition through the first winter. If you want to have something fun to do while you are waiting for them to grow, I suggest you study up alot and also take some cuttings (soon), put them in sterile, peaty soil and try to grow some more Satsukis for free. In his book, John Naka says the best way to grow an outstanding Satsuki is to start with cuttings and build the bonsai up from there.

Also you might watch these videos to get you started learning.

1. Satsuki Azalea Lecture (part 1)

2. Satsuki Azalea lecture (part 2)

3. Satsuki Azalea lectures (part 3)

4. Satsuki resource

Best of Luck on your new project!
DSD sends

 

[Shibui]

Satsuki and other azaleas grow really well if the soil is right, water is right and conditions are right. Otherwise they just won't grow.
My experience is that repotting and root pruning does not worry them. I've collected azaleas from gardens at all times of the year. Most involved radical root reductions and nearly all have survived that. Repotting any time from spring through summer is fine for azaleas so I doubt it was your repot that caused the earlier demise.
I do not have experience of Colorado cold but I suspect it much more likely to be the cause of azalea deaths.
I only wire trees into pots if they have very few roots. Most are self supporting until new roots take over. In high wind locations wiring in is more important but in many cases is not really needed.
I would think that peat would be expensive for potting soil but it is acid so maybe these are in peat. well drained mix is always my preference and then alter watering to suit the tree. I would agree with repotting either now or just after flowers have finished.

Check your water before trying azaleas. I see many threads talking about high pH water in the US. Many growers need to use acidifying fertilisers to counteract the alkaline water.

 

[Harunobu]

What is your goal right now? Sounds like your goal is to learn to take care of these and keep them alive in your area.

Colorado 5b may be too cold for almost all evergreen azalea? What do they sell locally? From what I know, on the east coast of the US and around the great bays areas in zone 5b, most evergreen azaleas will die and they had to breed their own cultivar or switch to deciduous azalea. So that right off means you need some greenhouse or winter storage suitable for trees. A dark shed can work during extreme frost, but I know from experience that being inside a dry dark area without any air circulation during frost periods can lead to mysterious death. Several of my potted azalea just refused to wake up in spring. So I stopped growing them in pots and planted them in the garden instead and hoped we wouldn't get an extreme winter that would kill my favourite plants. You definitely cannot do that in the mountains of a zone 5b area. And on top of that, your climate must also be really dry and get hot in summer. So that seems quite challenging to me. And judging from the pictures, you also got the maruba types that generally do better in Kyushu rather than R.indicum types that do better in (northeastern) Honshu.

When you get azalea from a nursery, they will likely be extremely pot bound and grown in 100% peat. Azaleas actually love peat, which is why most azalea and rhododendron nurseries are located on peat bogs. From my experience, they will thrive in peat pots for 1 year. After that, the soil will have compacted a lot and drainage and aeration will go down and they could start to suffer from chlorosis. Which is why repotting even all the way up to (almost) every year might benefit an azalea plant. Not 3 to 4 years like for maybe a pine bonsai. This is why I switched from peat/perlite/pine bark in plastic pots to 100% kanuma in terracotta pots. Cannot definitely say that this is better. I just noticed that plants just put in the garden were doing better than plants in pots.
I'd try to mix peat (the more coarse, the better) and kanuma. Not sure if you actually want to go to 100% kanuma. Your area must be a lot drier than Japan, US pacific coast, or coastal Northwestern Europe. Azalea roots like to stay moist all the time. Never dry or completely soaked for too long. Kanuma is so good because it is acidic, drains well, holds some moisture for a little bit of time, and roots can actually grow into it. So I would try 50/50 kanuma/peat. Whether you are using peat or kanuma, it will decompose/compact or become dust and you want to get rid of that and the roots that come with it. There are many videos on Youtube where they show just how much roots they remove and how they rake the roots to remove as much of the old soil as possible. Since the root system is so fine, you cannot really bare root them. You cut off old soil by cutting off the roots that hold them. That said, my seedlings and cuttings are practically bare-rooted all the time and that doesn't do any harm. But the peat pot the nursery grows them in is definitely not long term viable. It is what is ideal for them to grow a plant healthy and quickly, then sell it or throw it away.
Maybe they do things differently in the US, but from my experience every azalea I bought from a nursery was completely pot bound so much so that every feature of the plastic pot was impressed in the root ball. And the bottom layer was always water-logged and decaying/looking bad. What you do then is actually cut off the lower half. Then you rake open the remainder of the root ball by literally pulling out chunks. If you leave the root-bound surface intact, new roots will have problems growing into the new soil. The roots are so fine, you cannot untangle or bare root it, if you try. So when someone says they barerooted it. And someone else said 'carefully wash away the soil without damaging the roots', then that sounds like these azaea are not pot bound at all and still have fresh soil left to grow into.

Going to 100% kanuma right away is not such a good idea because in a pot you want something that is homogenous. Otherwise, the roots with the peat will retain all the moisture. And you will judge the kanuma as 'dry, so I need to water' and start watering even though the roots are becoming water logged.

So your climate may be the real challenge for you. But you can always go crazy and be like me. Ask around at local nurseries about which evergreen azalea does best in your climate. Buy that one. Then cross pollinate it with satsuki azaleas you bought from California and like. And grow seedlings from that cross and hope you get something that can survive locally but is more like a satsuki azalea then what is around right now.

Or get a greenhouse.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@kale
You have gotten a lot of good advice, a "deep dive" into the use of peat. I discovered that peat mixes last longer, with better structure if you regularly, meaning once a month to once a week, supplement with humic acids and fulvic acids. About tablespoon per gallon, of the "standard stock" products, as they come from your hydroponics grow shop. I've used a liquid product with seaweed. This seems to cause the peat to retain structure better. The same works nice for any & all bonsai media I've tried.

I do prefer Kanuma over peat for azalea that have made it to fine bonsai pots.

For Colorado, you will have to protect your Satsuki, in winter, even the "Hardy ones" can't handle the rapid and fairly wild temperature changes you get. Satsuki come from fairly temperature climate.

I use an old well house, no light, nice cold, but just above freezing. I keep a fan on, 24 hrs. 7 days a week, this keeps fungus away.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

What is your goal right now? Sounds like your goal is to learn to take care of these and keep them alive in your area.

Colorado 5b may be too cold for almost all evergreen azalea? What do they sell locally? From what I know, on the east coast of the US and around the great bays areas in zone 5b, most evergreen azaleas will die and they had to breed their own cultivar or switch to deciduous azalea. So that right off means you need some greenhouse or winter storage suitable for trees. A dark shed can work during extreme frost, but I know from experience that being inside a dry dark area without any air circulation during frost periods can lead to mysterious death. Several of my potted azalea just refused to wake up in spring. So I stopped growing them in pots and planted them in the garden instead and hoped we wouldn't get an extreme winter that would kill my favourite plants. You definitely cannot do that in the mountains of a zone 5b area. And on top of that, your climate must also be really dry and get hot in summer. So that seems quite challenging to me. And judging from the pictures, you also got the maruba types that generally do better in Kyushu rather than R.indicum types that do better in (northeastern) Honshu.

When you get azalea from a nursery, they will likely be extremely pot bound and grown in 100% peat. Azaleas actually love peat, which is why most azalea and rhododendron nurseries are located on peat bogs. From my experience, they will thrive in peat pots for 1 year. After that, the soil will have compacted a lot and drainage and aeration will go down and they could start to suffer from chlorosis. Which is why repotting even all the way up to (almost) every year might benefit an azalea plant. Not 3 to 4 years like for maybe a pine bonsai. This is why I switched from peat/perlite/pine bark in plastic pots to 100% kanuma in terracotta pots. Cannot definitely say that this is better. I just noticed that plants just put in the garden were doing better than plants in pots.
I'd try to mix peat (the more coarse, the better) and kanuma. Not sure if you actually want to go to 100% kanuma. Your area must be a lot drier than Japan, US pacific coast, or coastal Northwestern Europe. Azalea roots like to stay moist all the time. Never dry or completely soaked for too long. Kanuma is so good because it is acidic, drains well, holds some moisture for a little bit of time, and roots can actually grow into it. So I would try 50/50 kanuma/peat. Whether you are using peat or kanuma, it will decompose/compact or become dust and you want to get rid of that and the roots that come with it. There are many videos on Youtube where they show just how much roots they remove and how they rake the roots to remove as much of the old soil as possible. Since the root system is so fine, you cannot really bare root them. You cut off old soil by cutting off the roots that hold them. That said, my seedlings and cuttings are practically bare-rooted all the time and that doesn't do any harm. But the peat pot the nursery grows them in is definitely not long term viable. It is what is ideal for them to grow a plant healthy and quickly, then sell it or throw it away.
Maybe they do things differently in the US, but from my experience every azalea I bought from a nursery was completely pot bound so much so that every feature of the plastic pot was impressed in the root ball. And the bottom layer was always water-logged and decaying/looking bad. What you do then is actually cut off the lower half. Then you rake open the remainder of the root ball by literally pulling out chunks. If you leave the root-bound surface intact, new roots will have problems growing into the new soil. The roots are so fine, you cannot untangle or bare root it, if you try. So when someone says they barerooted it. And someone else said 'carefully wash away the soil without damaging the roots', then that sounds like these azaea are not pot bound at all and still have fresh soil left to grow into.

Going to 100% kanuma right away is not such a good idea because in a pot you want something that is homogenous. Otherwise, the roots with the peat will retain all the moisture. And you will judge the kanuma as 'dry, so I need to water' and start watering even though the roots are becoming water logged.

So your climate may be the real challenge for you. But you can always go crazy and be like me. Ask around at local nurseries about which evergreen azalea does best in your climate. Buy that one. Then cross pollinate it with satsuki azaleas you bought from California and like. And grow seedlings from that cross and hope you get something that can survive locally but is more like a satsuki azalea then what is around right now.

Or get a greenhouse.

Some really good information to pick through! I like hearing these other viewpoints.

Also parts I have additional thoughts to add. I don't have US wide experience on azaleas. I’ve just worked with just a variety of azaleas from VA, CA, OR and WA states and I’ve grown quite a few in the ground too.

Most commercial azaleas here are pot bound in my experience and commercial growers often put 2-3 together in a pot in the Pacific Northwest (land of the Ericacacae) for landscaping purposes. I haven’t seen any with root rot, but I’m pretty choosy about the health of the plants I get.

My experience with Satsukis is different with each grown one plant to a pot. Most of my species I source from Nuccios in CA. They specialize in Camellias and azaleas and hybridize them too, as well as offer good advice if you ask. These plants were all pot bound, yet I found I could water wash the roots mostly clear of peat and bark, although I did trim the bottom roots, which weren’t affected by rot. I recently purchased 4 Satsukis from a local source that weren’t pot bound, but vigorous. These I planted in the ground in a fine bark/soil mix to get big fast (mix idea courtesy of Fred Galle).

As for the Satsukis I potted, I found with time and a chopstick I can wash the roots of azaleas mostly clear of the peat.

I would not recommend 100% kanuma either, but it certainly will work, after all, centuries of Japanese growers can’t be wrong!.. and I wouldn’t recommend not washing the roots mostly clear of soil. It’s a painstaking process, but IMO worthwhile.

Furthermore I‘m not able to recommend a mix of kanuma and rough peat myself as I’ve never tried it before. But it would have to be a mix of rough peat and kanuma rather then potting the peaty bound roots buried in kanuma?

Frankly I only use a mix of kanuma and sphagnum moss for azaleas because I found it gives really good results here. Others locally use different mixes. I got the idea from Peter Chan and Paul Eslinger to mix Kanuma and chopped New Zealand Sphagnum in a 70/30 ratio. The Sphagnum seems to help aerate the soil as well as helps prevent disease.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[kale]

Lots of good info indeed. Thanks everyone! These are from Nuccios, and theyre HUGE compared to the last couple I ordered last year, if I remember correctly. This winter, I have plans to use my egress windows with a clear plastic cover and a small heater/thermostat to keep them above freezing, and hopefully below 40ish. Also I have a drip system with a smart controller so they can be watered anytime I want. So I will probably go with coarse peat and lava rock/expanded shale for drainage so I can water often, in my dry climate. I’d have to order kanuma online and itd be expensive so hopefully the peat will suffice. I think I will try to replace as much of the soil as I can on the two that arent flowered yet and go easy on the one with flowers.

 

[Harunobu]

My point was to not put your peat rootball azalea in 100% kanuma, assuming you can't get the peat out and the kanuma inside the roots. You would have a piece of peat sitting in the middle of kanuma (with of course the roots in the peat). That won't work well. So then move to 100% kanuma stepwise by first mixing it 50/50. Then next time you have a root ball partially peat, partially 50/50 peat/kanuma. And then if you slice out wedges or rake out old pieces, you will be moving towards 100% kanuma eventually.

If for a potten garden plant, 100% peat works, and if 100% kanuma works, 50/50 will work as well. I have received cuttings from people growing in a mix of peat, pine bark, and kanuma. I have been told that for an azalea in a bonsai pot with bonsai-sized root system, 100% peat doesn't work. I have also been told that for people in a mediterranean climate, 100% kanuma for a azalea bonsai doesn't work. But it may be the combination of repoting it into 100% kanuma after blooming in an area where it gets high 30's C with low humidity. Yes, it worked for centuries, in Japan. So always be careful when translating to other climates. Any bonsai artist or horticulturist will tell you so. The less humidity, the more you should think about adding organic components to the soil mix.

Kanuma is really good, but people have experimented with many different mixtures that all share the property of being acidic, aerated, and well-draining, all with good results. If something besides kanuma is producing the acidic component, you can use any inert form of pumice, expanded rock, or substrate. As long as it isn't basic/contains lime. And the more the fine roots can enter these rock particles, the better.

So yes, first step is to inspect that rootball and free the roots as much as possible from that old decaying peat. That could work by washing or powerblasting it out, or cutting off the bottom 20% and raking it open. I have also never gotten an azaeal with true root rot. But there was a clear difference between the peat/roots in the bottom and the upper layer, in terms of both colour, feel, and wetness. And many nurseries selling you such a plant will tell you to slice off that bottom half and rake open the root ball. And that is exactly the same thing as done by the Japanese when they repot a satsuki. But I can definitely see that if you get a plant from a speciality nursery like Nuccio's, there is much less work to do on much less 'dirty' roots and you could potentially semi-slip pot it.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Lots of good info indeed. Thanks everyone! These are from Nuccios, and theyre HUGE compared to the last couple I ordered last year, if I remember correctly. This winter, I have plans to use my egress windows with a clear plastic cover and a small heater/thermostat to keep them above freezing, and hopefully below 40ish. Also I have a drip system with a smart controller so they can be watered anytime I want. So I will probably go with coarse peat and lava rock/expanded shale for drainage so I can water often, in my dry climate. I’d have to order kanuma online and itd be expensive so hopefully the peat will suffice. I think I will try to replace as much of the soil as I can on the two that arent flowered yet and go easy on the one with flowers.

Nuccio’s is awesome IMO!
Looks like you’ve crafted a plan, so I won’t say anymore, except Its always of interest for members to see how different action plans turnout. So please keep us posted along the way as your project progresses over the years. cheers DSD sends

 

[kale]

Most definitely! I went with a semi-slip potting. Chopsticked the outer roots and around the nebari and took off the bottom third of the roots and put them in slightly bigger pots. Soil is sifted peat, expanded shale, lava.

 

[kale]

Gettin ready to go on a week long trip in 2 weeks so I had the set these babies up on the drip system

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Have a great trip!
I’m not a big fan of drip irrigation for azaleas in fast draining soil. For me I would rather see timed water sprayers that emulate a watering can stream.... this spreads the water around the soils surface and can be rigged to spray foliage circumspectly... but that’s just me.
Be safe!
DSD sends

 

[kale]

Have a great trip!
I’m not a big fan of drip irrigation for azaleas in fast draining soil. For me I would rather see timed water sprayers that emulate a watering can stream.... this spreads the water around the soils surface and can be rigged to spray foliage circumspectly... but that’s just me.
Be safe!
DSD sends

I agree! I am still searching for a good sprinkler that connects to a 1/4” tube. Hopefully all of the soil will get wet with the 3 min durations I have it set for.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

This Amazon link should get you started. If these don’t look good, look at the rest of the similar items as there are may listed. Last time I looked Home Despot had some too.
Also I’d recommend you check the weather and test your rig at. 3/5 min time intervals... for rate of flow to each plant.
best,
DSD sends
Axe Sickle Set of 50 Drip Emitters Perfect for 4mm / 7mm Tube, Adjustable 360 Degree Water Flow Drip Irrigation System for Watering System. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HHJB6I6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_xXA3Eb5AXRSTQ

 

[bunjin]

It looks like your plants are happy. What are the cultivars? Yes, Nuccio's plants are usually in coarse peat moss with some perlite. I have a more mild climate than Nuccios and very alkaline water, so what I do is not not very applicable to other situations and I think your potting mixture is probably good for your region. BTW Kanuma is slightly acidic at 6.5, so a totally inorganic component is okay if you have neutral water. Both peat and the commercial acid potting mixes are very acidic(<pH 6) and IMHO are essential for more rapid growth after many years of experimenting. Your challenge is of course the winter season. I highly recommend the Netafim PC spot sprayers with the separate emitter flow controller similar to a Woodpecker emitter. The hose is close to, but not exactly 1/4". All of my larger azaleas are watered with these or the more simplistic Roberts type spot spitters. My Juko cover azalea was a originally a 6" specimen from Nuccios acquired about 30 years ago.

 

[kale]

This Amazon link should get you started. If these don’t look good, look at the rest of the similar items as there are may listed. Last time I looked Home Despot had some too.
Also I’d recommend you check the weather and test your rig at. 3/5 min time intervals... for rate of flow to each plant.
best,
DSD sends
Axe Sickle Set of 50 Drip Emitters Perfect for 4mm / 7mm Tube, Adjustable 360 Degree Water Flow Drip Irrigation System for Watering System. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HHJB6I6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_xXA3Eb5AXRSTQ

@Deep Sea Diver, great info, thanks! I'll prob check home depot soon. However, after checking this morning they seem to be getting lots of water, and the soil surface was entirely wet so I think they may be good. I'll continue to monitor them.

 

[Harunobu]

I have no experience with drip systems. Yes, azaleas prefer to have a thorough watering followed by some time where the roots can partially dry. They like water, but like all rhododendron species they are susceptible to root rot fungi, likely because of their fine roots. So they don't like stale water in their pot. So as a permanent water mechanism, a drip system is not a good idea, assuming it literally drips at a constant rate.

But as this is a special precaution for a 1 week trip, should be fine.

 

[kale]

It looks like your plants are happy. What are the cultivars? Yes, Nuccio's plants are usually in coarse peat moss with some perlite. I have a more mild climate than Nuccios and very alkaline water, so what I do is not not very applicable to other situations and I think your potting mixture is probably good for your region. BTW Kanuma is slightly acidic at 6.5, so a totally inorganic component is okay if you have neutral water. Both peat and the commercial acid potting mixes are very acidic(<pH 6) and IMHO are essential for more rapid growth after many years of experimenting. Your challenge is of course the winter season. I highly recommend the Netafim PC spot sprayers with the separate emitter flow controller similar to a Woodpecker emitter. The hose is close to, but not exactly 1/4". All of my larger azaleas are watered with these or the more simplistic Roberts type spot spitters. My Juko cover azalea was a originally a 6" specimen from Nuccios acquired about 30 years ago.

@bunjin, Unfortunately, no idea what cultivars! I've been tempted to call Nuccios and see if they could tell me. I've already killed two of these last year unfortunately! I believe it was a combo of harsh winter and fertilizing too early this year did the second one in, after it appeared to survive the winter. Not to mention, they were planted in Napa 8822 lol. I'm not using that stuff on anything anymore. I have since moved and now have some large window wells that I am thinking will make for great winter storage of my plants. I plan on putting a plastic cover over and using a small heater/thermostat to keep above freezing. I'm thinking the heater may not be on much with warmth from the house and sunlight. Also don't think they'll get enough sunlight to be excessively hot either because there is shade from the house next door. Is your profile pic one from Nuccio's? It's beautiful! I am trying to let the trunks thicken but am becoming skeptical that they ever will. Still fun plants and lovely flowers!