Satsuki Azalea - what is happening?

[penumbra]

Add a cup of white vinegar to a gallon of water and use that daily to bring down the pH immediately

Forsooth, have you actually used that much vinegar in water dilution? Curious because it seems too high to me. I used vinegar to reduce pH in freshwater aquairiums but I only used about a teaspoon or so in 30 gallons and got the pH drop I wanted. It has been a number of years ago so I don't exactly remember with exactness, but my first experience dropped the pH too fast and too much and had a detrimental effect.

 

[River's Edge]

Forsooth, have you actually used that much vinegar in water dilution? Curious because it seems too high to me. I used vinegar to reduce pH in freshwater aquairiums but I only used about a teaspoon or so in 30 gallons and got the pH drop I wanted. It has been a number of years ago so I don't exactly remember with exactness, but my first experience dropped the pH too fast and too much and had a detrimental effect.

Vinegar is a poor product for PH balance either in aquariums or soil mixes! Very unpredictable, creates PH bounce, rapid drop and then bounce back in PH rise! Suggest other approaches such as addition of pine bark to help influence PH in Bonsai mix.
More effective product for adjusting PH in water is Phosphoric acid. ( with proper precautions).

 

[DamianTrimboli]

Hello! Thank for all your help! What Ive done is the soil drench with hydrogen peroxide + water and applied foliar daconil.
Probably next week I’ll do a soil drench with propamocarb.
Usually to reduce the ph I use of lemon juice.. it seems to me much more natural.

I water with reverse osmosis water, and sometimes I add calcium and mg. For fertilizing I use biogold every month, and foliar micro elements every week. (I stopped fertilizing this treen when problems started)

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Root death in azaleas for whatever reason, is nearly always a death sentence to the tree. They definitely have fine, fibrous roots, and seem to very direct root-to-branch connections. When azaleas have a root problem, you often see chunks of the tree die back. You almost can’t pull them out of the decline. If you do manage, it will require years of growing out and redesign. Best of luck, it has a good base.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Vinegar is a poor product for PH balance either in aquariums or soil mixes! Very unpredictable, creates PH bounce, rapid drop and then bounce back in PH rise! Suggest other approaches such as addition of pine bark to help influence PH in Bonsai mix.
More effective product for adjusting PH in water is Phosphoric acid. ( with proper precautions).

Yes, and it is temporary. I'm not crazy about quick fixes, and this is a quick action intended (by me) to give a little rope that might halt the decline outlined in the OP. He's only got just so many branches.

Vinegar is a poor product for PH balance either in aquariums or soil mixes! Very unpredictable, creates PH bounce, rapid drop and then bounce back in PH rise! Suggest other approaches such as addition of pine bark to help influence PH in Bonsai mix.
More effective product for adjusting PH in water is Phosphoric acid. ( with proper precautions).

I'm not comfortable discussing the specifics of the chemistry because there's more to it than I know about. I can't speak to what happens in a tank of water, but there would be a reaction with the base content in water or soil and the acid gets used up reacting with a like amount of calcium and/or magnesium, which might be more immediately available in a dispersion like water, especially in a constantly recirculating system. At least the dirt ain't moving around and some of the vinegar solution would be absorbed in neutral materials and not available for reacting until it became mobile with follow-on watering, in which there would be a continuing dilution and concurrent diminishing returns. Hence, once a week assuming watering every day. Everyone should feel free to add more specifics, but I'm already in over my head, chemically speaking.

All the better ways to adjust pH in soils are time consuming, especially like adding sulfur which takes forever to break down and become available. And, that's a lot less likely to become a problem. Scattering a few small grains of ammonium sulfate to fertilize and a few grains of Ag surfur to the surface of the soil to break down over time is a better way to do it, but that's a long term fix to a short term problem. I habitually under-fertilize bonsai for the sake of limiting growth to keep things small. I'm also a Hosta gardener so I know what makes things big. I want my Hostas big enough to block out the sun, and my bonsai smaller than the type.

Hello! Thank for all your help! What Ive done is the soil drench with hydrogen peroxide + water and applied foliar daconil.
Probably next week I’ll do a soil drench with propamocarb.
Usually to reduce the ph I use of lemon juice.. it seems to me much more natural.

I water with reverse osmosis water, and sometimes I add calcium and mg. For fertilizing I use biogold every month, and foliar micro elements every week. (I stopped fertilizing this treen when problems started)
View attachment 266304

You're doing a lot of chemistry here, much more than I'd feel comfortable with. Hydrogen peroxide is useful, but it is an insecticide that kills soft tissue on contact. If ya got bugs, it works. However, there are lots of good organisms alive in my soil that I don't want dead. There's always a trade-off. Every time you use something, there is a less desirable effect as a companion. For example, foliar feeding leaves a mineral film on the foliage that I don't like. It ain't pretty, and it doesn't come off.

I'm not an organic grower or gardener, but anytime I can avoid strong chemical measures, I do. Always a trade-off...

 

[Forsoothe!]

Too early for an update?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If you can not get Kanuma, an alternate potting media is composted bark. Fir bark & pine bark are best. In Argentina you should be able to get Pinus radiata bark, or bark of one of the hybrid pines used for forestry. Composted bark from other species could work, but pine bark has a proven track record. It only needs to be composted 3 to 6 months, though longer will work.

A blend of shifted composted pine bark and lava, about 1:1 should work.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Hey DamianT,
The best thing I’ve found is Kanuma 70% and Chopped Sphagnum moss 30%....
However Walter Pall reminded the world that most azaleas are planted in peat anyways, (As are all the ones planted in my landscape!) which would solve your problem about the acid soil issue. Here’s his take on this:
Azaleas, no need for kanauma
Cheers
DSD sends

 

[MichaelS]

I have planted azaleas in many different mixes. Last year I experimented with scoria (lava) and peat. About 3-5mm lava (washed well) and sphagnum peat (not sedge peat). Enough peat was added to slow water filtration a little. I guess it amounted to about15% or so. 5 -7mm lava in the bottom of the pot. The fines were also sifted from the peat. Result - excellent growth with roots flling the container completely within 12 months. I presume the ph is about 5.5 which is about as high as you want with azaleas. This year I added copper and iron to the peat. Very happy with the growth. If you drastically change azalea mix it is absolutely VITAL that you wash the roots completely clean of the old mix. They will then grow like stink.
BTW, lava alone would end in disaster. It's ph can be as high as 9.

 

[Pitoon]

You pissed that azalea off!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Hey DamianT,
The best thing I’ve found is Kanuma 70% and Chopped Sphagnum moss 30%....
However Walter Pall reminded the world that most azaleas are planted in peat anyways, (As are all the ones planted in my landscape!) which would solve your problem about the acid soil issue. Here’s his take on this:
Azaleas, no need for kanauma
Cheers
DSD sends

The rough peat that Walter Pall is able to source locally is called German Peat or German Hard Peat in North America and is VERY DIFFERENT than the peat sold in North America. The OP is in Argentina, and unless the OP can source German Hard Peat, the article by Walter Pall can be misleading. German Hard Peat is quarried from ancient peat beds, where the metamorphosis toward coal has progressed much more so than Canada peat quarries. The German product is hard, chunky lumps, with relatively little in the way of fines. To the touch is more like pine bark or brown soft coal than like the soft, flour like Canadian peat.

Canadian peat is relatively young peat, usually less than 500 years old. Only moderate amounts of metamorphosis has occurred. When harvested almost all is milled to a fine powder, too fine for bonsai use. In general is a poor substrate for bonsai. There are times it is useful, but that is for specialized discussion.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Great info about German peat moss Leo. Initially all I was aiming for was to save the azalea as a shrub, then as a Bonsai. I think peat, if nothing else available would work fine to do the job.
That’s what lots of the nursery plants are grown in here anyways. I favor tossing in a good chunk of spagnum too. Maybe heretical, yet practical wins with me.

I did know the question came from Argentina and did a little research on peat sources, ....having been there ....my interest was piqued about peat in that area.
I’m thinking Walter Pall would say this peat was good for German
standards and use.... what do you all think?
Cheers
DSD sends
Age and formation of Patagonian Peatlands p2
Most peatland locations were occupied by ice during the Last Glacial Maximum
(LGM) approximately 24,500 BP. Glacial and postglacial processes molded favor-
able landforms for peatland development which followed the deglaciation, in the
age of 9–12 ky BP (early Holocene). Older records from early deglaciated
locations near the LGM termini have however been reported: 16 ky BP in southern
continental Patagonia in Rubens (Markgraf and Huber 2010) and Punta Arenas
(Heusser 1995) and 17 ky BP in southern Tierra del Fuego (Markgraf and Huber
2010). Older ages have been determined in North Patagonia for successional
deposits of peat and lake sediments (Villagran 2001).

 

[Walter Pall]

What you call German peat is coming from Russia and other eastern countries. Peat is simply semi-decomposed sphagnum moss. This is everywhere in wet post-glacial bog or ex-bog areas areas. It is the most common soil way up north from Norway over Sweden, Finland, Russia, Siberia, Alaska, and Canada. Within walking distance from my home I find countless post-glacial areas with peat. They are the same in Russia and in Canada. Peat used to be harvested in Germany and now it is forbidden to harvest it here. Patagonian peat is probably very similar.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Walter, is that your personal inventory?

 

[Walter Pall]

Well, that's how much you need if you do it for serious.

But quantitiy is not the key. it's the quality. Have you ever wondered whyy I call It "rough pet" and not just"peat"? Because it has to look like what's in the hands and not like powder.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thank you so much for that information Walter!
Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Walter,
That is beautiful peat. Not the nearly "brown coal" material that I had encountered some 30 years ago, on which I based my comments. This is more similar to Canadian peat moss that has not been milled to a fine flour.
Unfortunately in USA it is difficult to get peat that has not been processed by milling to a powder.

If you can find a source, it is a good product.

I use peat, even the fine powdery stuff in my nursery mix for sizing up blueberries, which are strict calcifuge, acid loving plants. We get tiny explants from tissue culture on the farm, and have to bring them up to a size that is large enough to see from the seat of a tractor. Then they get planted out in the field.

For those who like to use "magic elixors" from your marijuana grow shops. If you regularly use fulvic and humic acid supplements over the course of one growing season, fine powdery peat most develops a chunky, more open porous structure just because of the combined interaction of the peat, with the humates and fulvates and they mycorrhiza and the blueberry roots. Its is an interesting thing to see.

 

[augustine]

Is it too warm for azalea in you area?

 

[Harunobu]

I don't think it is the pH being too high. A high pH inhibits the uptake of iron, which causes yellowing of the leaves aka chlorosis. That looks very different than this. What this looks like is how my cuttings look when they don't take root. I would say it is a root issue. And it doesn't look like lack of water because then the leaves go limp and the leaf tips 'burn' first. This also explains why it happens to a branch and not the entire plant.

I agree it doesn't match your potting mix description because in lava rock substrate it should drain quickly. So I would also raise the question if you know the weather isn't too hot for them as well.

Soaking roots in peroxides or adding vinegar to reverse osmosis water; I wouldn't do any of that because it seems it would do more harm than good.

If you want to set the pH of water you need to use a buffer. Reverse osmosis water doesn't really have a pH value because even breathing on it will make the CO2 from your breath dissolve in the water and turn the water acidic with carbonic acid. Putting reverse osmosis water anywhere will just make it copy the pH of anything getting into contact with it. Any amount of diluted acid or base will completely change the pH. In the lab, we cannot measure the pH of ultrapure water at all.

If you really want to set the pH of the water, set your pH to 5 using acetic acid and some acetate salt. Only use reserve osmosis water to remove carbonate ions from the water because the water is too hard.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Walter,
That is beautiful peat. Not the nearly "brown coal" material that I had encountered some 30 years ago, on which I based my comments. This is more similar to Canadian peat moss that has not been milled to a fine flour.
Unfortunately in USA it is difficult to get peat that has not been processed by milling to a powder.

If you can find a source, it is a good product.

I use peat, even the fine powdery stuff in my nursery mix for sizing up blueberries, which are strict calcifuge, acid loving plants. We get tiny explants from tissue culture on the farm, and have to bring them up to a size that is large enough to see from the seat of a tractor. Then they get planted out in the field.

For those who like to use "magic elixors" from your marijuana grow shops. If you regularly use fulvic and humic acid supplements over the course of one growing season, fine powdery peat most develops a chunky, more open porous structure just because of the combined interaction of the peat, with the humates and fulvates and they mycorrhiza and the blueberry roots. Its is an interesting thing to see.

Walter,
That is beautiful peat. Not the nearly "brown coal" material that I had encountered some 30 years ago, on which I based my comments. This is more similar to Canadian peat moss that has not been milled to a fine flour.
Unfortunately in USA it is difficult to get peat that has not been processed by milling to a powder.

If you can find a source, it is a good product.

I use peat, even the fine powdery stuff in my nursery mix for sizing up blueberries, which are strict calcifuge, acid loving plants. We get tiny explants from tissue culture on the farm, and have to bring them up to a size that is large enough to see from the seat of a tractor. Then they get planted out in the field.

For those who like to use "magic elixors" from your marijuana grow shops. If you regularly use fulvic and humic acid supplements over the course of one growing season, fine powdery peat most develops a chunky, more open porous structure just because of the combined interaction of the peat, with the humates and fulvates and they mycorrhiza and the blueberry roots. Its is an interesting thing to see.

Hey Leo,
I was doing some yard planting and the local garden store had sourced some peat I never tried before. I was amazed when I opened it as I couldn’t break it with a shovel without repeated bashing. It breaks in to hard chunks that are hard to break down.
I thought you might be interested in looking at this... maybe you are familiar with it as it’s from your neck of the woods...
Cheers
DSD sends
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