Satsuki repot....?

fredman

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I have a problem that I would like your opinions on plz. Even better....hopefully someone has some experience in doing it.
This Satsuki (don't know which one it is) has been in this big pot for some 5 years now....composted pine bark, scoria and pumice. I only realised later it should never have gone into such a big pot. It never really flourished in it.
I trimmed the living daylights out of it and it needs to come out now. My problem is I want to put it into Kanuma, but i'm a bit unsure how it'll take to that. It's been in a similar mix since it was a cutting. Not sure if i'm mistaken, but I have in my mind that i've read somewhere that some don't take to Kanuma easily when grown in the ground....or a soil similar to what it's in now.

I realise there's only one way to find out, but i'm kinda reluctant to take the risk. My other option is an ericacious mix (that I have on hand), but I prefer the Kanuma.
What would you think it's chances are...or am I over thinking things again?
IMG_20200730_172620.jpgIMG_20200730_172610.jpgIMG_20200730_172603.jpgIMG_20200730_172550.jpg
 

Harunobu

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Has it really be in there for 5 years? That's a really long time, especially for a mix of that type. Keeping it in there is also a type of risk. Since it is late winter for you it is dormant.

I may have said the thing about 'i've read somewhere that some don't take to Kanuma easily when grown in the ground'. But if you mean me, then you misunderstood me. I was talking specifically about new cultivar. And that a genetic flaw that a new cultivar may have is that they don't do well under certain conditions.

Whatever you have was likely selected in Japan for doing well as a bonsai in kanuma. We can have another debate about if a plant that has exceptional vigor in kanuma in Japan will have the same exceptional vigor when in peat in Europe, NA or NZ.

This likely is going into another training pot? Hard for me to judge how much it did grow as you say you pruned it heavily and it is winter now. I think I would put it in a shallow training pot with 50-50 kanuma-ericacious mix. I feel this is a safer option. The larger the pot, the easier it is to water properly, the less important having 100% kanuma is.
 

Harunobu

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I would find a shallower pot with maybe only a slightly smaller diameter. Make sure it has very good draining holes. Not just one tiny hole. Plastic nursery pots show the proper amount of drainage holes. Terracotta pots never have, unless they are bonsai pots from Japan. Put a layer or large grain kanuma in the bottom would be best, but optionl. Then mix 50-50 ericacious mix and normal size kanuma. Put a layer on top of the large drainage kanuma. Then take your azalea out of the pot it is in now and look at the roots. You think it is not pot bound? I would say that it probably isn't. So then try to wash away old soil with water. If it is pot bound, rake open the rook ball. Then place it in the new pot and make sure your roots are at the right level. You will only be adding a very shallow layer of mix on top of your roots, so that you can no longer see the roots. Not more. If you were planting a nursery azalea in your garden, you would actually keep the root ball a cm above the soil layer and then put mulch up to the top of the rootball to keep the top roots cool.

This youtube channel has many videos of azalea bonsai being repotted. Most of them are 50 years old and go back into bonsai pots. So there is a lot of root pruning to maintain or develop nebari, that you could skip.


Think about how you could be harming it by repotting it? I think you said that frost risk is over. It is dormant right now. You aren't going to be taking away a lot of roots either. And if it turns out it does have a lot of roots and it does need some root ball raking. Think about how much leaves it has right now vs how much roots. And about how much water it will be needing. These are the summer leaves that it keeps during winter. These are specialized to not lose a lot of moisture in case the plant freezes solid and cannot take up any water.

As for whether to repot it nor or in two weeks, I don't know your climate. The most perfect timing would be to do it just before the roots start to grow. But if you can't hit that perfect timing, doing it a week too early is better than doing it a week after the roots started growing. Because then you maybe cutting or damaging newly grown roots. And note that roots start growing earlier than the first sign of new buds.
 

bunjin

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I would try the suggested 50% Kanuma mix as that is what usually works for me, but I also think it is the safer route if an azalea has always been in something else. I would definitely go to a little bigger, shallower pot assuming it is now root bound and it needs more training time. I would repot in March in the northern hemisphere , which is Sept. for you? Repot again in two years. As far as styling, since it looks like you are going for a twin trunk - Naka's Bonsai Techniques has a few pages starting at page 202 devoted to the style. I like your use of a stake as less use of wire is always good. On your smaller trunk, I would remove the 2nd apex held up by the toothpick. Per Naka, normally the smaller trunk should mimic the shape of the taller one. Top Jin or equivalent will help heal that bottom scar. It looks fairly healthy and will be a really nice "tree" with a little bit of work. I attach one of my TT. After so many years, it's still a work in progress.
20200730_102133.jpg
 

Harunobu

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Yeah, he should check how the roots look like. It should be pot bound after 5 years. But if it really didn't grow much, it may not be (and that is partly not a good sign, partly probably the result of the pot always having been too big). If it is pot bound, go with a larger diameter. If it is not, take a diameter slightly larger than the root ball. So if it is pot bound, ignore my comment about taking a smaller diameter pot and follow Bunjin's advice to upgrade to a larger diameter.
 

fredman

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Has it really be in there for 5 years? That's a really long time, especially for a mix of that type. Keeping it in there is also a type of risk. Since it is late winter for you it is dormant.

I may have said the thing about 'i've read somewhere that some don't take to Kanuma easily when grown in the ground'. But if you mean me, then you misunderstood me. I was talking specifically about new cultivar. And that a genetic flaw that a new cultivar may have is that they don't do well under certain conditions.

Whatever you have was likely selected in Japan for doing well as a bonsai in kanuma. We can have another debate about if a plant that has exceptional vigor in kanuma in Japan will have the same exceptional vigor when in peat in Europe, NA or NZ.

This likely is going into another training pot? Hard for me to judge how much it did grow as you say you pruned it heavily and it is winter now. I think I would put it in a shallow training pot with 50-50 kanuma-ericacious mix. I feel this is a safer option. The larger the pot, the easier it is to water properly, the less important having 100% kanuma is.
I just lifted it out the pot. It's not root bound yet, but roots do fill the pot. It is coming out of dormancy now. It's just just starting to grow. Very little growth, but the roots has definitely woken up. I'm sure the roots will need trimming to fit the new pot. Not sure to trim now and repot, or wait for it to finish it's first growth spurt and then cut back. I left a few flower buds....2 to be exact 😁
Yes the 50/50 sounds very good to me. It's going into a terracotta azalea pot. I do drill many more holes for them yes.
 
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fredman

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As for whether to repot it nor or in two weeks, I don't know your climate. The most perfect timing would be to do it just before the roots start to grow. But if you can't hit that perfect timing, doing it a week too early is better than doing it a week after the roots started growing. Because then you maybe cutting or damaging newly grown roots. And note that roots start growing earlier than the first sign of new buds.
According to your advice here...it's to late. I'll be removing roots that is growing. Then again it has soooo little leaves on top...much more roots than leaves.
 

Harunobu

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According to my advice, you missed the perfect timing. You saying it has many new roots is of course very a good sign. Yes, if you decide to prune the roots, you will be cutting away some of your newly growing roots. But you can't let a plant stay in 5 year old organic mix for another year, I would say. It would just have been better if you had pruned off the old roots just before they started growing, then have the new roots you see now come off from your pruned roots and have them grow into your old soil.

But, if it is not pot bound. You don't need to prune the roots, right? The opening of the root ball is because if an azalea is very pot bound, all the roots gather at the surface of the root ball. And this blocks contact and interaction with the new soil. A root coming from within the root ball cannot grow right through the roots covering the root ball. The roots trying to find a way out of the pot will form a layer that will inhibit root growth into your new potting mix, or the garden soil. That's why you rake open a pot bound rootball. If your azalea fits in your new pot, there is no absolute need to prune the roots.
 

fredman

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Thank you for your quick response mate. Yes it has to come out that soil. I have a bigish terracotta pot that'll have to accomodate all the roots. I'll wash it clean and see for sure what is going on in there. Won't cut growing roots.
It's a very fine line to find when the best time to trim roots is just before they start growing...isn't it?
Best time, I would think then, is when it's still in full dormancy...very late in winter...?
I have some that are that way now.
 

Harunobu

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Just to clarify, when I say you missed the perfect timing, that doesn't mean that reporting now isn't still a very good idea. I would do the repot. It would have been more perfect if you had done it a week ago.

It is really hard to guess when the roots go out of dormancy, because of course you cannot see them. Also, in my climate the roots wake up before the risk of frost is gone. In my experience, you are often or always too late in guessing the timing.
 

fredman

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Just to clarify, when I say you missed the perfect timing, that doesn't mean that reporting now isn't still a very good idea. I would do the repot. It would have been more perfect if you had done it a week ago.

It is really hard to guess when the roots go out of dormancy, because of course you cannot see them. Also, in my climate the roots wake up before the risk of frost is gone. In my experience, you are often or always too late in guessing the timing.
Makes sense. When there's enough energy stored from last year's growth, the roots has a bigger window of bouncing back after the trim. All about timing and observations aye?
Thanks again.
 

bwaynef

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I repotted 6 satsuki in various mixes. The ones in mixes closer to straight kanuma were proportionally healthier the closer the mix was to straight kanuma. There's probably more to it than JUST that, but that was what I noticed this spring. (BTW: All 6 went into straight (sifted) kanuma.)
 

Forsoothe!

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On the styling side of things, it seems to be an interesting design. Please update as it fills in foliage in your later summer.
 

fredman

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I repotted 6 satsuki in various mixes. The ones in mixes closer to straight kanuma were proportionally healthier the closer the mix was to straight kanuma. There's probably more to it than JUST that, but that was what I noticed this spring. (BTW: All 6 went into straight (sifted) kanuma.)
Thanks for that. I have high hopes for it. It has the finest of leaves..and small pink flowers. I'm 99% sure it's satsuki...almost kazan like.
The kanuma I have is on the small side...2-4mm. It's all I can get here in NZ so I have to go with it. I decided on a 80% kanuma and the rest the ericacious soil.
 

fredman

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On the styling side of things, it seems to be an interesting design. Please update as it fills in foliage in your later summer.
I will. I'm highly excited for it. It's my best looking one to. The guy I got it from grew it from a cutting..as a slanted. I've been pulling it back upright for the last two years. It has oodles of movement and potential character. Beautiful nebari in the making also. That's why why i'm so nervous about it.
I will definitely keep it updated.
 

fredman

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I've done the roots and it's resting in the seaweed extract while I prepare the pot. Taking photos as I go. From the original post you can see i'm trigger happy about this one, so i'll load you with photos soon 🤪
 

fredman

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As far as styling, since it looks like you are going for a twin trunk - Naka's Bonsai Techniques has a few pages starting at page 202 devoted to the style. I like your use of a stake as less use of wire is always good. On your smaller trunk, I would remove the 2nd apex held up by the toothpick. Per Naka, normally the smaller trun
Thank you for this observation mate. TBH I didn't even contemplate a twin trunk. That first branch was horizontal and i've been pulling it up gradually to get a better angle for it. It's supposed to be a side branch, but now you mention it...I love twin trunks and will definitely put some thought into it.
 

Forsoothe!

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I like the second trunk as a counter-balance.
 

bunjin

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Interesting that you are going to terra-cotta. I can't make them work for me, but you have more rainfall and undoubtedly better water. I am going to write up my 4 year study/test of azalea planting mixes soon to give some validity to the use of components other than kanuma. It was successful in terms of confirming a couple of my observations, but like most studies, created some new questions. Luckily the 5 year azalea contestants are really doing a 5 year study of their own, and doing a better job at documenting it than I did.
 

fredman

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Interesting that you are going to terra-cotta. I can't make them work for me, but you have more rainfall and undoubtedly better water. I am going to write up my 4 year study/test of azalea planting mixes soon to give some validity to the use of components other than kanuma. It was successful in terms of confirming a couple of my observations, but like most studies, created some new questions. Luckily the 5 year azalea contestants are really doing a 5 year study of their own, and doing a better job at documenting it than I did.
Ah the only reason i'm going with terracotta is I have to many bonsais to buy pots for. The terracotta ones I use are round and flatish. Made in Italy...very well priced to. TBH i'm not fussed about bonsai pots at this stage.
Our water is out a big dam in the mountains nearby....beautiful clear rainfall. But then the council do what councils does...they add chemicals to it before they deliver it to us. I installed a proper water filter setup that removes most those chemicals again. Tastes as rainwater out the tap. No bubbles as the chlorine and who knows what acknowledges it's presence. The garden...and bonsais gets that to 👍
 
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