scotch pine advise

chappy56

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Greetings. I haven't been on here for sometime but I thought I'd throw this out there for some advice from the experts. I collected this two years ago and am looking for some advise on how to proceed. I think I'm ready to start refining this tree but would appreciate some of your collective wisdom...Ideas?
 

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fourteener

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Greetings. I haven't been on here for sometime but I thought I'd throw this out there for some advice from the experts. I collected this two years ago and am looking for some advise on how to proceed. I think I'm ready to start refining this tree but would appreciate some of your collective wisdom...Ideas?

My first three things...

1. Get it in good bonsai soil this spring. Do some decent root work. Not a complete overhaul of soil but start the process if identifying nebari producing roots.

2. There is a natural break between two areas of foliage. Eliminate the top.

3. When you do repot it, get a good planting angle at the base. There is already some decent movement there, but I would put this tree so that the first two inches of trunk do not go up, but off at an angle.

4. Lastly and maybe not this year. See how much more movement you can out into the bottom of the trunk. You want it a little over exaggerated when it's young.

This tree has some nice potential.
 

GO-OK

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Your pine looks great! I think that's the one we dug together in Geneva right?

Don't eliminate anything yet. It's not in bad bonsai soil either as I recall it was pumice correct? Maybe turf ace. Either way its not in nursery soil so that's great. This has the makings of a great literati, that's why I suggest not eliminating the top yet. At least take your time and evaluate options after studying some nice literati pines.

I am really happy it lived...If indeed it is the same tree.
Neil
 

chappy56

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Yep. That's the one Neil. Soil should be fine. It's in Hadite (expanded shale). Literati seems to be the natural choice. Good to hear from you Neil.
 

fourteener

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Well if literati is what you want, start twisting it and getting more trunk movement. Also realize that a decent literati is as hard to pull off as a decent windswept. People tend to think that just because something is tall it should be in this form. I would say literati requires, length, trunk movement and unique trunk qualities to make it be or appear old. Good luck, have fun.
 
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Vance Wood

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Do you have any idea of the basic branch structure? You post this photo of this tree from maybe five feet away from one view and expect to get good advise on what to do? If the trunk is as large as I suspect it is you are not going to be able to bend it without hollowing out a portion of the trunk and embedding wire, a complicated and extreme technique not used much even by "the masters".

The real strength in this tree as a bonsai is the trunk. You need to examine the branches and explore the stylistic possibilities. It is impossible with this photo to give those options to you when all we can really see is a thick trunk and that the tree is healthy. If you could provide a bunch more photos something could be offered in way of advise. Your original question of advise on how to proceed would be to look at this tree closely starting with the base which you probably cannot change. Many times a four foot tall tree will make a foot and a half inches tall bonsai.

If you are not at the stage in your bonsai insight where you can visualize a much smaller tree hiding in that mess of branches it is probably a good idea to let the tree be until you can find someone with a bit of experience greater than your own to give you some help. It's a nice tree, from what little I can see, and it deserves being made into something a bit more compelling than a truncated Christmas tree with bar branches and artistically unaccounted for jins. The idea of a literati is also, and probably-- not going to happen, though it is a possibility. But the choice of the literati style is only the first in a litany of choices that are nothing more than choices. Because the tree is tall it is easy to think that a Literati would be a good choice, but there is a lot more to a literati than being tall and spindly. You need to see what the tree can be not force it to be one of your arbitrary choices. Don't misunderstand me please, I don't mean to sound like I am scolding you. I am only trying to take the tree as seriously as I hope you are. I am only pointing out the truth of what you have in front of you. We can tell you to make an informal upright of the tree, almost anything, but that would only be an option based on nothing.
 
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Vance Wood

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Well if literati is what you want start twisting it and getting more trunk movement. Also realize that a decent literati is as hard to pull off as a decent windswept. People tend to think that just because something is tall it should be in this form. I would say literati requires, length, trunk movement and unique trunk qualities to make it be or appear old. Good luck, have fun.

Don't forget the ubiquitous cascade.
 

Vance Wood

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Well if literati is what you want start twisting it and getting more trunk movement. Also realize that a decent literati is as hard to pull off as a decent windswept. People tend to think that just because something is tall it should be in this form. I would say literati requires, length, trunk movement and unique trunk qualities to make it be or appear old. Good luck, have fun.

Thanks Terry. I have been trying for years to get people to use their real names. If you can't stand up to your own words maybe you should not say them. Sometimes they make unsavory fare.
 

chappy56

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Do you have any idea of the basic branch structure? You post this photo of this tree from maybe five feet away from one view and expect to get good advise on what to do? If the trunk is as large as I suspect it is you are not going to be able to bend it without hollowing out a portion of the trunk and embedding wire, a complicated and extreme technique not used much even by "the masters".

The real strength in this tree as a bonsai is the trunk. You need to examine the branches and explore the stylistic possibilities. It is impossible with this photo to give those options to you when all we can really see is a thick trunk and that the tree is healthy. If you could provide a bunch more photos something could be offered in way of advise. Your original question of advise on how to proceed would be to look at this tree closely starting with the base which you probably cannot change. Many times a four foot tall tree will make a foot and a half inches tall bonsai.

If you are not at the stage in your bonsai insight where you can visualize a much smaller tree hiding in that mess of branches it is probably a good idea to let the tree be until you can find someone with a bit of experience greater than your own to give you some help. It's a nice tree, from what little I can see, and it deserves being made into something a bit more compelling than a truncated Christmas tree with bar branches and artistically unaccounted for jins. The idea of a literati is also, and probably-- not going to happen, though it is a possibility. But the choice of the literati style is only the first in a litany of choices that are nothing more than choices. Because the tree is tall it is easy to think that a Literati would be a good choice, but there is a lot more to a literati than being tall and spindly. You need to see what the tree can be not force it to be one of your arbitrary choices. Don't misunderstand me please, I don't mean to sound like I am scolding you. I am only trying to take the tree as seriously as I hope you are. I am only pointing out the truth of what you have in front of you. We can tell you to make an informal upright of the tree, almost anything, but that would only be an option based on nothing.

You? Scold someone Mr. Wood?....perish the thought. Here are a few more pictures. I don't have any solid plans yet, but have a few ideas. I was really just interested in hearing everyone else's comments.
 

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Vance Wood

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You? Scold someone Mr. Wood?....perish the thought. Here are a few more pictures. I don't have any solid plans yet, but have a few ideas. I was really just interested in hearing everyone else's comments.

Thanks for posting the additional photos, that helps a lot. From what you say you have a lot of ideas but wanted to hear what others had to say. Many would look at trying to preserve the total height of the tree, only bending the branches with wire and settling for an informal upright style looking a bit like a twisted Christmas tree. Forever lost in that wonderful world of bonsai gone boring.

I think there is a lot more in this tree than that fate. The trunk is really a wonderful asset and the branches should be used to set it off. I believe that the future of this tree begins in reducing it by at least 50%. If you look at your photo 4 of 4, the first set of good branches, would be a good place to start, in considering where to cut the tree back to.
 
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chappy56

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Here are a few ideas of the pines that I'd like to emulate.
Pictures #1 and #4 in particular.
I really like the idea of jinning the top of the tree...
 

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Vance Wood

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Here are a few ideas of the pines that I'd like to emulate.
Pictures #1 and #4 in particular.
I really like the idea of jinning the top of the tree...

They're all possible except 4 of 4, which is also possible only in desperation.
 

Smoke

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I could wire a great literati out of that in about four hours.
 

chappy56

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Here are a few ideas of the pines that I'd like to emulate.
Pictures #1 and #4 in particular.
I really like the idea of jinning the top of the tree...

Should have been one and three. My mistake...
 

Eric Group

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I like the movement low in the trunk!

There are a few options here obviously... Instead of just chopping it and wasting the top, you might be able to graft a few upper branches lower on the tree if you are going for a more compact design, you will need some branches down there and the only one you do have low on the trunk is in an awkward spot. I don't know a damn thing about grafting branches, only what I have read and seen done, never done it myself, just know it can be done! With Pines most of what I have seen done is grafting branches together, not sure what your options are for grafting onto the trunk, but I am sure it has to be possible!

Good luck! Endless possibilities!
 

jkd2572

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I think you should layer off or cut off the top part that is obvious. Then go from there. I'm talking about the top that has a big separate space.
 
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