Scots pine development opinions

[CptnGlyn]

Hi guys, I recently acquired a yamadori Scots pine, and have been researching into development strategies for them.

From what I can see Ryan Neil seems to advocate a year of free growth, pruning back in the following year to encourage the resulting back budding to grow. Very slightly differently, Harry Harrington chooses to prune back in the autumn of the same year following an unpruned growth season, in order to trigger backbudding come spring.

My tree has the foliage a fair distance from the trunk (as you might expect) so obviously encouraging backbudding and chasing back the foliage is the order of the day (decade?) prior to resorting to grafting and wild bends but interested to hear who has tried what, and who has the results to back it up…?

 

[Forsoothe!]

Growing seasons around the world vary widely and it is difficult to get a perspective on what someone says when we don't know where in the world they are. If you go to the upper right hand corner and click on your Icon, you can add your location and people will be able to customize advice for you, and you might connect with another local.




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[Paradox]

Hi guys, I recently acquired a yamadori Scots pine, and have been researching into development strategies for them.

From what I can see Ryan Neil seems to advocate a year of free growth, pruning back in the following year to encourage the resulting back budding to grow. Very slightly differently, Harry Harrington chooses to prune back in the autumn of the same year following an unpruned growth season, in order to trigger backbudding come spring.

My tree has the foliage a fair distance from the trunk (as you might expect) so obviously encouraging backbudding and chasing back the foliage is the order of the day (decade?) prior to resorting to grafting and wild bends but interested to hear who has tried what, and who has the results to back it up…?

A picture of the tree would be useful to see what you are dealing with.

If you try the year of growth followed by pruning, make sure to feed the tree well during the year of growth so it has extra reserves to push buds

 

[CptnGlyn]

Here are photos of my tree which I didn’t get chance to include earlier. Hand is in to try to demonstrate the foliage gap in the long low branch (which I’m assuming will require a graft in the future).

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I've been both lucky as well as unlucky with both techniques.
Cutting back shoots in summer too soon causes sylvestris to push a second flush. Too late and the buds don't form until spring. So I cut back new shoots in the second half of the summer near fall, when the new buds have developed.
Cutting back in Autumn is just too much of a risk for me; if the weather isn't awesome and warm, nothing happens until the second half of spring, or like this year: the second half of summer(!).

I get solid backbudding from exposing branches and letting them grow real well. The late summer pruning seems to induce more backbuds for me compared to autumn. Our winters don't differ a whole lot from the UK.
Scots pines are tough, but a good growing season before chasing back the foliage is something to aim for. Otherwise you'd be weaking the tree too much.
It's true that there are multiple techniques possible: JBP technique of cutting shoots after they've hardened off, cutting half the shoots in summer or fall, cutting the entire shoot in fall.
Not sure which one is best, because all of them get similar results. The JBP technique however is detrimental to the tree's health and shouldn't be performed too often because they're not built to double flush, if you want to do it then do it maybe once every 4 years at most.

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

I agree with the above comment about late summer pruning For me to have the best back budding, you should cut back right now. Your tree looks fairly healthy, it should respond well to this method, except for the leggy first branch but you should be able to do without.

Cutting back latter is possible, but to me the drawback is that new buds would appear later in spring and you'd loose some precious time of the growing season.

 

[sorce]

That tilia was so like the other I forgot your Welcome to Crazy! Sorry for that!

For me, there are 3 basic categories one may fall into when trying to get "backbuds".

1. The poorest way, to cut back a weak tree/branch, that is not showing any signs of budding further in, which just causes the tree/branch to get weaker. Your lowest branch seems there.

2. A bit more reliable, to cut back a good portion of a branch that is already showing buds further in. Medium health. The top of your tree may be here, or between one and 2.

3. Allowing the health to become so great, that your interior buds are already year 1-2 branches, that can be cut back to directly, which has the benefit of sparking buds even further in.

It's important to note that "timing", fall, late summer etc... is only relevant in the first 2 categories. So if you find yourself in the trap of thinking a specific time of year will make a difference, you are in a trap of failure.

This is a subtle form of Great Impatience that we allow to continue by discussing what time is better.
Stems from not addressing the difference between development and refinement.
Refinement requires more specific timing, because results matter for showing that season, or sometime soon, or simply keeping it..... refined.

This tree, with it's slender good movement, falls into a category of training I have, where you eliminate low branches that are hopeless, favoring parts further up, which are more vigorous, and already contain close branches that can be kept close and easily trained.
Low branches are only necessary if they are hiding an otherwise dull trunk.
Close to trunk branching is always important to achieve the ever so important, but often forgotten value of SCALE.

I never prune for backbudding, except for when it is the secondary mission as in example 3.

I prune to bring more light/health to parts below.

Sorce

 

[CptnGlyn]

Haha cheers @sorce yea the Tilia were very similar. Il probably update that thread soon, it’s done well this year.

Cheers guys, yeah the lower branch I’m not too sure on, although it’s somewhat common to see one in the wild with one or two retained low limbs. If I can carry off a natural style tree then it may come in useful, so I would prefer to spend a couple of years or so looking at it and considering than dropping it now and regretting it. Might as well spend that time seeing if I can get some closer buds in on it.
So I’m considering having a prune back of the stronger branches nowish, and plucking off some of the older needles at the same time, but leaving the weaker ones alone.

 

[sorce]

prefer to spend a couple of years or so looking at it

Amen. You wouldn't have to remove it for a while.
Keep it till it's a problem. Many years!

Does that first pic show the best movement?

I'd like to see that view from the corners and sides.

You plan on tweaking the top to continue that movement?

Sorce

 

[CptnGlyn]

I'd like to see that view from the corners and sides.

Here’s a slow spin for ya (with occasional prodding of branches

 

[CptnGlyn]

In December I attended a workshop with Harry Harrington of Bonsai4me and we wired this tree up (first pic) I basically left it alone all year, save cutting the most vigorous of candles and feeding it.
The long low branch was coiled around during this wiring to bring the foliage in, and whilst it certainly achieves that I feel it hides the trunk too much and long term is like to try and get more budding on the secondaries nearest the trunk, or failing that to look at grafting options.
The other photos are from today, the wire was starting to bite and many backbuds are developing. Next year I hope to be able to get some of them firing, ahead of cutting back to them when growing strongly.