Scots Pine from home depot.

Joeface

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Thanks Bonsai Nut that is exactly what I needed to hear! I was trying to rush it too much, I was a little overeager, being excited isn't a bad thing though is it? :p We'll see if I can keep this guy alive for a few years.

Al, you don't have to be care bear nice for me to learn some things from you, it just helps a bit :p (it does seem like you're trying really hard to discourage me though)

Thanks!
 

greerhw

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I have yet to see a piece of material like this turned into a decent tree, but I hope you prove me wrong. There is a reason places like Home Depot don't advertise pre bonsai material. In my opinion, noobs should start out with material that someone with experience started in the right direction, otherwise you will waste your time and get frustrated in the end. That's just the way it is. You CANNOT make a silk purse out of a sows ear, period and this Scotts is a sows ear. Plant it in the ground and make a landscape tree out of it, that way you didn't waste your money.

Harry
 
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Vance Wood

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I don't mean to take a sort of moral high road here but the future of bonsai is in our hands for better or worse.

Is there anyone now in bonsai, outside of Japan where finding experienced help and professionally grown material, has not started with something like this? There may be a few living in California where it is more common to run into experienced bonsai people than anywhere else in the country. If an individual's interest was piqued by a book or the Internet the likely hood is good that material like this will be the result. Many will find this stuff frustrating and lose interest but it should not be because people like us who have likely traveled the same road.
 

Joedes3

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Read, read, read. Join a local club. Practice on this with the knowledge that this is not going to be your masterpiece. Develop the skills you will need and learn from your mistakes. All of this will keep you interested and want to learn more. Some of the people here are experts and some want the hobby to grow.

From what I have observed, sometimes the experts just don't seem to have much tolerance of beginners.

I would also use this tree as a test for keeping something alive during th e winter months. It was only ten dollars, enjoy yourself. But learn from all aspects of the experience with this tree, even if you kill it. And you may kill it. But that is OK.

Remember, read, join a club, ask questions and then ask more questions. Forget those who will be negative. Best of luck and welcome to the forum.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Joe,

Enough people have already weighed in about the difficulty of learning/starting with pines for bonsai, and especially those not grown specifically for bonsai. Do work with other trees, but since you asked about working on this one specifically, you did get some good advice on what can be done if you decide to practice. For now, a couple other very general rules of thumb that weren’t mentioned include…brace yourself:

1. Once you identify the trunk line with the best taper; mark the pot to identify the front.

2. Most convincing bonsai have the primary branch emerging from the right or left side; the next branch should be higher, and emerging from approximately the opposite side, and the third branch is even higher, and emerging from approximately the back. This is repeated until you get to the apex. Again…this is very general.

3. Pines tend to produce whorls of branches at the same point around the trunks and branches; like spokes of a wagon wheel. This results in taper and visual balance problems.

4. To keep the tree tapering properly, reduce each of these whorls of branches to the best single branch emerging from the trunk:
a. The best single branch is a branch with needles closest to the trunk, and emerging on the outside of a curve.
b. When you reduce each whorl to the best single branch, you’ll see why this isn’t the best starter material.

5. This step would be best to do with someone with experience:
a. Keep foliage close to the trunk, take what’s left and reduce each branch back to the closest couple tuft of foliage to the trunk. This is the OPPOSITE from the “Poodle” look; you want to remove the outer growth, leaving interior growth that is close to the trunk.
b. Take the end of a branch in your left hand, trace it all the way back to the trunk. Find the tuft of growth on that branch that is CLOSEST to the trunk, then the second closest tuft…then remove everything beyond that second tuft.
c. Be sure each tuft of foliage has a bud on the end.
d. You can see some of this on an unfinished article called "Fall work for pines" at my website here.

Also, keep in mind that the present trunk might not be the best trunk line. You mentioned liking the trunk line, but remember that you could more easily identify a branch that can be shaped to achieve point 2 above (see attached photo as one option).

Scotts Pine Option.JPG

After this, post some photos and let’s see what’s left.
 
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greerhw

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Scotts in general do not make good bonsai, I known there are exceptions to every rule, but it takes someone with a lot of experience and skill to develope one and that is usually from a very old yamadori.

Harry
 

JudyB

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Even if it's the worst piece of material in the world, there are all kinds of things he can learn from it. I think that it would be easier if Joeface started with deciduous trees, yes. But if he can keep this alive and learn pruning and shaping techniques on a $10.00 tree, then he'll be ready for better stock and know what to do with them in a couple seasons. Better to do that than kill a promising tree....
Welcome to the forum Joeface. Do yourself a favor and get a decent deciduous tree to work as well. It'll teach you faster and you'll be able to do more work sooner.
 

greerhw

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Sorry to disagree with you Judy, but every beginner should start with a green mound juniper (Procrumbens Nana), the least expensive, easiest to style and keep alive. In most cases you can have something resembling a bonsai after the first styling. In the club I used to belong, we did 4 demo trees at our show. We always used green mounds and sold all of them to people watching the demo. It's as close to instant gratification as possible in bonsai, and a great learning plant.

Harry
 
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Joedes3

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My first tree was a Juniper. I killed it the very first winter. The price was right (Home Depot) and I learned from the experience. I also joined a local club. Harry is right, it looked like a bonsai instantly. I thought I knew it all, what a surprise!
 

greerhw

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Picking out good material, pruning and wiring, keeping your plant alive all take different skill sets and all are equally important. Learn them all !!

Harry
 
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Smoke

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I wish I had a photo of the Japanese Black Pine in front of Chikugo-En Bonsai Nursery in Gardena. Last time I asked Gary how long it took him to maintain it and I think he said he spends three days trimming and selecting buds in the Fall. Three days on one tree! And Gary Ishii probably knows as much about JBP as anyone in the country!

Here ya go....
 

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Smoke

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Read, read, read. Join a local club. Practice on this with the knowledge that this is not going to be your masterpiece. Develop the skills you will need and learn from your mistakes. All of this will keep you interested and want to learn more. Some of the people here are experts and some want the hobby to grow.

From what I have observed, sometimes the experts just don't seem to have much tolerance of beginners.

I would also use this tree as a test for keeping something alive during th e winter months. It was only ten dollars, enjoy yourself. But learn from all aspects of the experience with this tree, even if you kill it. And you may kill it. But that is OK.

Remember, read, join a club, ask questions and then ask more questions. Forget those who will be negative. Best of luck and welcome to the forum.

Just what exactly constitutes tolerance? I am not tolerent because I do not respond to threads such as these anymore? Have you read every post I have ever posted in the last 13 years on the many forums I belong to?

Negative? Forget those that will be negative? Is it negative to tell someone that they have wasted their money on a poor buy? Is it negative to tell someone that only learning Doctors work on cadavors, and it will be more prudent to spend ones time on more productive learning experiences?

My replys come from years of experience, a body of work left on many forums and articles written on a variety of bonsai subjects for everyone willing to type my name into an advanced search engine. Why are my negative replies less important than those of someone more positive about the elephant in the room? Is there not room on this forum for those that don't beat around the bush and really have experience with this sort of tree?

In all the posts here I have still not seen anyone share anything as to how to utilize this tree into anything near looking like a bonsai. Brian's idea is to cut 95 percent of the tree off retaining a small branch at the bottom....yea good luck with that.

Sometimes it's OK to tell someone to cut their loss and just move on. Is that so bad?
 
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greerhw

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Just what exactly constitutes tolerance? I am not tolerent because I do not respond to threads such as these anymore? Have you read every post I have ever posted in the last 13 years on the many forums I belong to?

Negative? Forget those that will be negative? Is it negative to tell someone that they have wasted their money on a poor buy? Is it negative to tell someone that only learning Doctors work on cadavors, and it will be more prudent to spend ones time on more productive learning experiences?

My replys come from years of experience, a body of work left on many forums and articles written on a variety of bonsai subjects for everyone willing to type my name into an advanced search engine. Why are my negative replies less important than those of someone more positive about the elephant in the room? Is there not room on this forum for those that don't beat around the bush and really have experience with this sort of tree?

In all the posts here I have still not seen anyone share anything as to how to utilize this tree into anything near looking like a bonsai. Brian's idea is to cut 95 percent of the tree off retaining a small branch at the bottom....yea good luck with that.

Sometimes it's OK to tell someone to cut their loss and just move on. Is that so bad?

I feel ya pain brother, nobody wants to hear the truth when they think they know more than you do. When someone posts a piece of crap material for opinions, well then I'm going to tell them they posted a piece of crap. They probably won't listen anyway and spend a few months snipping and wiring the damn thing before it dies. I know it seems harsh to some sweet natured folks, but patting someone on the head and lying to them about what they are about to embark on is much crueler than being blunt.

Harry
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Just what exactly constitutes tolerance? I am not tolerent because I do not respond to threads such as these anymore? Have you read every post I have ever posted in the last 13 years on the many forums I belong to?

Negative? Forget those that will be negative? Is it negative to tell someone that they have wasted their money on a poor buy? Is it negative to tell someone that only learning Doctors work on cadavors, and it will be more prudent to spend ones time on more productive learning experiences?

My replys come from years of experience, a body of work left on many forums and articles written on a variety of bonsai subjects for everyone willing to type my name into an advanced search engine. Why are my negative replies less important than those of someone more positive about the elephant in the room? Is there not room on this forum for those that don't beat around the bush and really have experience with this sort of tree?

In all the posts here I have still not seen anyone share anything as to how to utilize this tree into anything near looking like a bonsai. Brian's idea is to cut 95 percent of the tree off retaining a small branch at the bottom....yea good luck with that.

Sometimes it's OK to tell someone to cut their loss and just move on. Is that so bad?

Thought you "don't respond to threads like this any longer"...? Pretty sure we've all agreed on the answer to his first question: this tree isn't headed to the show, but the guy's second question was for some "styling pointers", presenting an opportunity to adhere to your original post, or add to your body of work. I provided several pointers, including one radical. You and I were both new once, and if there's one thing to remember from back then...newbies are going to work on trees; best to point 'em in a direction and hope they learn.
 

Smoke

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Whats wrong with pointing them in a better direction?


OK I have really had it with this "you and I were new once too crap".

Are you telling me that you went out and bought a crappy pine and posted it to a forum and told everyone you were new and thought someone else would design yur tree for you?

Or did you in the privacy of your own home kill a few dozen trees by actually working on them, learning from your mistakes, and continue to grow to the person you are today.

I don't know about you but thats not the premise of this thread at all. This guy did not come here and ask what would be an appropriate tree to begin this art with. He did not start with square one, he started with buying a tree wayyyy over his head, and then posting it here expecting everyone to fawn over it and then tell him that he could produce something great in a couple years. Just admit it, it was a bad buy, end of story. Plant it in the ground, give it to a neighbor, plant it in somebodies name on arbor day, but for heaven sake get something more worthy of this persons capibilities and get get an honest start on something that has potential to be something.

I have made some pretty good trees out of crap before , but even I would not want to work on that pine. Let's be honest Brian, if that guy came to your house and asked for help would you really tell him to cut that thing down to the crown?
 

greerhw

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If you can't handle "The Truth" please don't post something you bought. Some us that have been do this for a long time will tell you the truth, but it will probably not be what you want to hear. If you can handle the truth, it will save you time, money and make your experience a much faster learning curve. I wish someone would have helped me. I'm going back to the bar, this is why I don't hang out on this side much anymore, I feel like I'm just wasting my time.

Harry
 
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Smoke

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I am new to this forum, but have been working with Bonsai for a decade. It's a shame that this forum has such a welcoming feel, but a couple individuals that go out of their way to condescend a beginner. After reading some of the threads, it is the same repetition of this from a couple users; and it is troubling when this hobby has so much gratification to offer, even a beginner. Why bother making a comment sometimes?

Deriving pleasure in others belittlement really is sad.

SMOKE--You chased off another---I am referring to myself. Signing Off.....

Posts like this crack me up. This guy has three posts and feels like I'm a bad guy for chasing him off. Give me a break.

Harry you hit the nail on the head. It's guys like Walter Pall who do not take time to post anymore to forums like this because someone is always telling him he's harsh or he doesn't know what he's talking about. Come on, it's the posters that provide good reading material about technique and can back that up with pictures over many years and how plants respond to technique that are missed when someone decides to quit posting.

Piss off all the contributers and what do you have left...a forum full of those eager to pat you on the back. Good luck planting than in a bonsai pot.

Peace out, Al
 

Vance Wood

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Come on guys, you can tell people the truth that doesn't include a long drive off a short pier. Sometimes a real bad choice can manifest itself in the very material being impossible or not worth the effort. You can't expect a bonsai virgin to know all these things. But the bottom line is this. Trying to encourage someone to stay in bonsai is more valuable to the art than putting a blind fold on them and pointing them on a walk through a mine field.

I don't believe either one of you are so mean spirited as to exploit an opportunity to be hurtful to someone who asked for help. If you think answering one of these questions is below you then don't answer it. I have certainly ignored more than my share of threads in my lifetime; mostly because they didn't interest me.
 
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greerhw

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Hey Vance, when I tell a newbie to buy a Procumbens to start on, is the best advice I can impart to them. Starting with material that has no chance or requires the efforts of a pro. will run them out of the hobby faster than my comments will. Good luck with your new hobby folks. First I will go see the exciting thread "what's your weather like"
then back to the bar !!

Harry

PS:
Never mind what I say, buy what you like and make a beautiful specimen tree out of it three years.
 
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Brian Van Fleet

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Whats wrong with pointing them in a better direction?


OK I have really had it with this "you and I were new once too crap".

Are you telling me that you went out and bought a crappy pine and posted it to a forum and told everyone you were new and thought someone else would design yur tree for you?

Or did you in the privacy of your own home kill a few dozen trees by actually working on them, learning from your mistakes, and continue to grow to the person you are today.

I don't know about you but thats not the premise of this thread at all. This guy did not come here and ask what would be an appropriate tree to begin this art with. He did not start with square one, he started with buying a tree wayyyy over his head, and then posting it here expecting everyone to fawn over it and then tell him that he could produce something great in a couple years. Just admit it, it was a bad buy, end of story. Plant it in the ground, give it to a neighbor, plant it in somebodies name on arbor day, but for heaven sake get something more worthy of this persons capibilities and get get an honest start on something that has potential to be something.

I have made some pretty good trees out of crap before , but even I would not want to work on that pine. Let's be honest Brian, if that guy came to your house and asked for help would you really tell him to cut that thing down to the crown?

Nope, and I didn't suggest cutting it down to the crown. But I would teach him that the current trunk isn't necessarily the only option...which was exactly the point I was making.
 
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