Scots Pine Mother / Daughter

AndyJ

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Hey folks.

I‘ve got a Scots Pine that I‘m trying to develop as a “Mother / Daughter” tree. It’s about 3-4 years old and has been growing ok. It’s planted in an ok substrate - although as I have learned through this forum, I think it could be better. I’m hoping to repot into the 1:1:1 mix of Lava/Akadama/Pumice this spring.

I‘m after some opinions about the tree as I’m not convinced the design really works at the moment. I feel the trunks are perhaps a bit too straight? I’ve played around with them to try and get an idea but still can’t convince myself! The plan is for a ”Mother” that’s about 30”high and a daughter about 18”

I’d like to know what you think, and any tips/advice that will help in this tree’s development.

Thanks all.

Andy








 

sorce

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I'd skin the mother of branches up to the 18".
Thinking about beginning hers at that spot where there is a branch with fork and the "new lead".
Bend slight movement into her no more than the "new lead" has.

And greatly consider this image, of a mother daughter crack head whore combo and go for that.

Rather than some phony ass runway model skinny.

Cuz let's face it, they ain't exactly "eating".

Nice.

Sorce
 

AndyJ

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Thanks Sorce - I like your analogy!

So introduce a slight bend in the mother and leave the daughter as is?

I'd left that low branch to use as a sacrifice; would you remove that now too?
 

AndyJ

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With our early spring, the buds are just starting to swell on my Scots Pines.





Apologies for the second photo above. As you can see some of the buds are swelling and on the ends of some of last years candles (this years branches!) there are three buds. Sometimes four. Should I be reducing all of these to just two buds now? Or do I wait until the needles have broken on each candle and then remove the strongest one?

Also, as I cut this back quite hard in 2018 so the tree would produce lots of new buds, should I just let it grow this year, unchecked? Or do I cut the shoots back hard again this year? Ideally, I want some of the lower shoots/branches to grow (a) to help swell the trunk and (b) because I’d like to make some Jins up and down the trunk.

Thanks all and sorry for the long post.

Andy
 

GGB

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I'm jealous, this thing was managed well. By you or whomever you purchased it from. The branches are all thin and green right up to the trunk. looks like this will make a lot of progress fast. I used to have a bunch of scots pines but they gave me anxiety. this makes me want to buy a more developed one
 

Mike Corazzi

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I'm jealous, this thing was managed well. By you or whomever you purchased it from. The branches are all thin and green right up to the trunk. looks like this will make a lot of progress fast. I used to have a bunch of scots pines but they gave me anxiety. this makes me want to buy a more developed one
God CREATED Scots pines to give man anxiety. :p
 

sorce

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Thanks Sorce - I like your analogy!

So introduce a slight bend in the mother and leave the daughter as is?

I'd left that low branch to use as a sacrifice; would you remove that now too?

I think the mother can afford a bit of movement, but not so much that a man came and spiraled it into a "bonsai".

The daughter, being young and pliable, should follow suite in time.

The sacrifice, will only serve to give this, what could be sexy, line, an odd "muffin top" character. Since it will only thicken what is below it, and you are not going for a tree that matches such thickness, or sensible "taper".

Should I be reducing all of these to just two buds now?

I see removing buds down to 2 as a refinement technique. For when it matters.
I feel like maybe the yeller branch can begin this, but its half optional.
Capture+_2020-03-05-11-40-02.png

The only things I see as necessary is in the green.
Really, leaving anything below this, if not intending to regrow everything from it eventually, is counterproductive.

But of course, don't remove it until it is necessary.

Sorce
 

AndyJ

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I'm jealous, this thing was managed well. By you or whomever you purchased it from. The branches are all thin and green right up to the trunk. looks like this will make a lot of progress fast. I used to have a bunch of scots pines but they gave me anxiety. this makes me want to buy a more developed one
Thanks GG. Proud to say it’s all my own work! I got this as a seedling, very small. I wanted to try Mother/Daughter Father/Son (whichever is the correct style name?) so I grabbed a scalpel and sliced the seedling from top to bottom. Then very carefully wound some soaked raffia around the two stems and kept my fingers crossed! I wasn’t sure if it would make it but hey presto! Three years later and look at it now. Very pleased 😀
 

AndyJ

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I think the mother can afford a bit of movement, but not so much that a man came and spiraled it into a "bonsai".

The daughter, being young and pliable, should follow suite in time.

The sacrifice, will only serve to give this, what could be sexy, line, an odd "muffin top" character. Since it will only thicken what is below it, and you are not going for a tree that matches such thickness, or sensible "taper".



I see removing buds down to 2 as a refinement technique. For when it matters.
I feel like maybe the yeller branch can begin this, but its half optional.
View attachment 286978

The only things I see as necessary is in the green.
Really, leaving anything below this, if not intending to regrow everything from it eventually, is counterproductive.

But of course, don't remove it until it is necessary.

Sorce

Great stuff - thanks Sorce. I’ll remove those branches then. Can I get away with doing it now? Or should I wait til summer?
 

AlainK

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Anecdotical : in our semi-latin country, no one would use "Mère/fille", "Mother/Daughter", everyone says "Père/Fils", which I think is also the gender used in Japan and probably many other countries :rolleyes:

I think the mother can afford a bit of movement,

I agree, the main tree would benefit some wiring, and the secondary tree too. I think both can be wired.

so I grabbed a scalpel and sliced the seedling from top to bottom.

Wow, great : I think a tree, trees, with such a bold operation are worthy being treated with ambition. To me the top of the main tree needs clearing, selecting main branches.

A nice, challenging project, good luck with it.
 

parhamr

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You should still be able to introduce good movement into the mother trunk with one well-applied wrap of 4-gauge copper wire (or two wraps of 6-gauge). You can bend young Scots quite well — see this post.

For taper, you can do great work with escape branches. By wiring a select few lower branches to point upward, the tree will likely notice the effective solar absorption and prioritize those buds. Then you’ll let those escape branches run wild for a few years. This is helped with a rather large and shallow pot for development purposes. Here’s one of my trees grown by Telperion using this escape branch method.
 

AndyJ

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Anecdotical : in our semi-latin country, no one would use "Mère/fille", "Mother/Daughter", everyone says "Père/Fils", which I think is also the gender used in Japan and probably many other countries :rolleyes:



I agree, the main tree would benefit some wiring, and the secondary tree too. I think both can be wired.



Wow, great : I think a tree, trees, with such a bold operation are worthy being treated with ambition. To me the top of the main tree needs clearing, selecting main branches.

A nice, challenging project, good luck with it.
Thanks Alan, I appreciate that. Scots are my favourite and I've got a few so hope to learn and store as much knowledge as possible. I'm hoping to develop some really good ones of these
 

AndyJ

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You should still be able to introduce good movement into the mother trunk with one well-applied wrap of 4-gauge copper wire (or two wraps of 6-gauge). You can bend young Scots quite well — see this post.

For taper, you can do great work with escape branches. By wiring a select few lower branches to point upward, the tree will likely notice the effective solar absorption and prioritize those buds. Then you’ll let those escape branches run wild for a few years. This is helped with a rather large and shallow pot for development purposes. Here’s one of my trees grown by Telperion using this escape branch method.

Thanks Pharmar. Confused now as your advice differs to Sorce's. So, it's sacrifice branches - to keep or not to keep?! 😊
 

GGB

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Wow Andy, I am not even aware of that technique of trunk splitting, outside of maybe a fat root on a maple tree. cool stuff
 

parhamr

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Thanks Pharmar. Confused now as your advice differs to Sorce's. So, it's sacrifice branches - to keep or not to keep?! 😊
I think Sorce was saying all of the “extra” upper growth on the mother is not useful to develop taper. Lower branches on the mother, however, can be useful to make for taper. You’ll want to both allow for specific vigor down low AND control upper growths to remain delicate, I think.
 

sorce

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Screw taper is what I'm saying!

Further, to get pleasing taper with sacrifice branches on this particular tree is foolish.

The slender taper that will come with lack of branches should be enough, and will never leave her bulgy and ugly.

Taper is everything till it isn't.

Of course, this is only the vision in my head.

Sorce
 

Potawatomi13

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Other than in butt mother and daughter both need some curves:eek:.
 

AndyJ

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Hey folks.

This Scots Pine has always been really healthy, as you can see from above. I did a HBR repot this year into better substrate (previous particles were too small) and while all needles remain green and look ok, this years candles have done nothing; they all formed but just didn’t extend. There are needles on the new candles but they have remained very small and it looks like the they’re not going to grow. Any thoughts on what’s happened? Have I lost this years growth? Is the tree dying?

Not great photos I’m afraid - can you make out what I mean from these?

Thanks all

Andy

A740179A-82F3-485C-855F-4C8EABBE9464.jpeg43EC3CCC-7453-4E38-BE97-FCF97C7F45B3.jpegD33456E8-3DDD-4C63-8A71-68CD5907442B.jpeg5437FA44-9A2A-4681-8BD6-68AC57AA4070.jpeg5435B55D-D2EB-4E67-AF30-B9D4AD34C279.jpegAEB4A1E2-C68F-4A30-BB6D-192C2CA57B8A.jpeg
 

Adair M

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Hey folks.

This Scots Pine has always been really healthy, as you can see from above. I did a HBR repot this year into better substrate (previous particles were too small) and while all needles remain green and look ok, this years candles have done nothing; they all formed but just didn’t extend. There are needles on the new candles but they have remained very small and it looks like the they’re not going to grow. Any thoughts on what’s happened? Have I lost this years growth? Is the tree dying?

Not great photos I’m afraid - can you make out what I mean from these?

Thanks all

Andy

View attachment 317125View attachment 317126View attachment 317127View attachment 317128View attachment 317129View attachment 317130

on the last picture, you show you have wired the straight trunk, but you’ve not put in any curves. Why did you wire it?
 
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