Scots Pine Newbie

Fallen_Reality

Sapling
Messages
46
Reaction score
0
Location
Illinois
USDA Zone
5b
Hello! I have just got a couple of Scots Pines after a trip to Christmas Tree farm near Milan, Illinois. They were free because the owner is a friend with the Quad Cities Bonsai Club, of which I am a member. I dug them out of the ground and put them into some cheap plastic pots.

Most of my knowledge of bonsai is of tropicals, mostly ficus. As such, I have little knowledge of pine care and training, and was wondering what tips you guys can give me, or sources of information that would be useful. Also, here are a few pics. I know they are still very young, and will take a long time to be useful as bonsai material.

0604031812.jpg

0604031811.jpg

Thank you for any help!
 

Harunobu

Chumono
Messages
793
Reaction score
977
Location
Netherlands
USDA Zone
7b
Check these:

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/pines2.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2bRyxYSJTM

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Y6j2wgI2U


You need to grow a trunk with character.
For that you need low branches that can be grown to be sacrificial branches.

But you need to do it while maintaining branches that are going to be the branches of the final design.

In a way both type of branches need opposite treatment.

Long internodes is not what you want. I collected Scot's seedlings from the forests here. Almost all were long spindly with long internodes. They grew in the shade. I had to find a space that was open and with southern sun to find the bushy seedlings. These I have been trying to train using the info listed above.


Usual the advice would be to 'let it grow' but if it is going to grow the wrong way it doesn't matter.
Backbudding is needed. And for that Scot's need to be pruned. And for backbudding they have to be strong enough or else they won't.

Then those backbudding can be used to grow both the sacrificial branches, that are sacrificial and the future branches, that should be maintained with foliage close to the trunk and not shaded out by the sacrificial branches.

Once the lower trunk has the right taper and diameter you can think about chopping it and selecting a new leader.

Right now these pines don't have the potential to be grown into bonsai succesfully. I don't know if they can be made that way.
It you let these grow out the trunk will just get thicker but without any taper.
If you prune for backbudding you may not get the backbudding you want and when the lower trunk is too old it may never backbud there ever.


As for pruning Scot's pine for backbudding. The idea is that you prune after the new candles unfold and give return on investment photosynthesis-wise.
Then you keep about 1/3rd of the candle or about 8-10 pairs of needles.
So this is different than JBP. (two flush growth vs one flush growth of the Scot's pine)
 
Last edited:

Telperion

Seedling
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
This year: fertilize aggressively. Full sun. Want maximum growth.
Next year: put it in the ground or a very large nursery pot. Continue to feed generously.
Just let it grow for 3-4 years, then you will be ready to make some decisions that will lead to harvesting a significant tree.
Good luck,
Chris Kirk
Telperion Farms
 

Fallen_Reality

Sapling
Messages
46
Reaction score
0
Location
Illinois
USDA Zone
5b
This year: fertilize aggressively. Full sun. Want maximum growth.
Next year: put it in the ground or a very large nursery pot. Continue to feed generously.
Just let it grow for 3-4 years, then you will be ready to make some decisions that will lead to harvesting a significant tree.
Good luck,
Chris Kirk
Telperion Farms

What would one call an aggressive fertilization regimen?
 

Harunobu

Chumono
Messages
793
Reaction score
977
Location
Netherlands
USDA Zone
7b
If he waits 3 to 4 years, won't the portion of the tree just above the roots be unable to backbud period?

Isn't it better to be 3 years slower in trunk girth but have the low branches required for proper taper and branch design?

Isn't this especially true if the final tree isn't going to be extremely large and tall, which it probably has to be.
 

Paradox

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,338
Reaction score
11,405
Location
Long Island, NY
USDA Zone
7a
Fallen, it would really help us if you would update your profile with your location. We would be able to give you better advice if we know where you are.

Chris Kirk owns Telperion Farms and has been growing Scots pines specifically for bonsai. He is trying to promote Scots here in the U.S. It is commonly used in Europe for bonsai.
He has said in the past that Scots pine will back bud all the way down the trunk if fed and given the right conditions to do so.
I would follow his advice
 
Last edited:

Fallen_Reality

Sapling
Messages
46
Reaction score
0
Location
Illinois
USDA Zone
5b
Fallen, it would really help us if you would update your profile with your location. We would be able to give you better advice if we know where you are.

Chris Kirk owns Telperion Farms and has been growing Scots pines specifically for bonsai. He is trying to promote Scots here in the U.S. It is commonly used in Europe for bonsai.
He has said in the past that Scots pine will back bud all the way down the trunk if fed and given the right conditions to do so.
I would follow his advice

Sorry, I thought I had already put it into my profile. I'm in 5b.
 

Telperion

Seedling
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
Sorry I don't seem to be able to post pictures.
It's been our experience that the Scots back bud all the way to the ground, but we only maintain the most recent whorl.
Aggressive fertilizer might be 1/2 strength Miracle Grow (or the equivalent) every 2 weeks, or more. Depends on the soil.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,911
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Sorry I don't seem to be able to post pictures.
It's been our experience that the Scots back bud all the way to the ground, but we only maintain the most recent whorl.
Aggressive fertilizer might be 1/2 strength Miracle Grow (or the equivalent) every 2 weeks, or more. Depends on the soil.

That's not aggressive, aggressive is full strength once a week. With bonsai soil it is washed through so fast the full strength application is necessary. Telperion; I did not mean to sound challenging or rude even though reading back through this post that's the way it sounded, so if you took offence I beg your forgiveness. However the comment remains true about aggressive fertilizing.

As to the Scots Pines. These two trees are absolute raw mateial. There are basically three ways to go and none of them will give you even the beginnings of a bonsai outside of three seasons. The first is the twisted trunk where the trunk is wired and twisted around on itself and compressed down. Sawgrass posted a thread using this technique or a variation on it.

The second is to plant the tree as you have and allow it to grow out then cut it back hard and wait for back budding where you would like it.

DSC_0890.jpg

The third is to cut it back now to the lowest branch then let it grow and in a season or two cut it back again. This will fatten the trunk and give you the kind of growth you will need if you want to grow a shohin.

DSC_1342.jpg

Neither one of these trees are finished but both are in the development stages of a bonsai beginning.
 
Last edited:

Telperion

Seedling
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
That's not aggressive, aggressive is full strength once a week. With bonsai soil it is washed through so fast the full strength application is necessary. Telperion; I did not mean to sound challenging or rude even though reading back through this post that's the way it sounded, so if you took offence I beg your forgiveness. However the comment remains true about aggressive fertilizing.

As to the Scots Pines. These two trees are absolute raw mateial. There are basically three ways to go and none of them will give you even the beginnings of a bonsai outside of three seasons. The first is the twisted trunk where the trunk is wired and twisted around on itself and compressed down. Sawgrass posted a thread using this technique or a variation on it.

The second is to plant the tree as you have and allow it to grow out then cut it back hard and wait for back budding where you would like it.

View attachment 36889

The third is to cut it back now to the lowest branch then let it grow and in a season or two cut it back again. This will fatten the trunk and give you the kind of growth you will need if you want to grow a shohin.

View attachment 36890

Neither one of these trees are finished but both are in the development stages of a bonsai beginning.



Ah, that's what I like to hear. You are correct Vance. No offense taken. Especially with porous soil mixes, full strength once a week would be proper. I try to be cautious when giving advice because I don't know what soil mix someone may be using, or their watering habits. Rarely see people using soil mixes as porous as we do.
Thanks,
Chris
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,911
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Ah, that's what I like to hear. You are correct Vance. No offense taken. Especially with porous soil mixes, full strength once a week would be proper. I try to be cautious when giving advice because I don't know what soil mix someone may be using, or their watering habits. Rarely see people using soil mixes as porous as we do.
Thanks,
Chris

You are correct. Sometimes we tend to be too cautious, but the modern liquid fertilizers are pretty goof proof in that they will not burn even when doses are exceeded. Thanks for not being offended at my post.
 
Messages
200
Reaction score
4
Location
columbus, ohio
USDA Zone
6a
Given that his trees were nursery grown, we can assume that they were in the sun and are vigorous. Therefore, could he get a head start by pruning some branches this year?
I'm aware there are lots of variables. If he took a good rootball and since the trees are still rather young, he may get some good back-budding next year.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,911
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Given that his trees were nursery grown, we can assume that they were in the sun and are vigorous. Therefore, could he get a head start by pruning some branches this year?
I'm aware there are lots of variables. If he took a good rootball and since the trees are still rather young, he may get some good back-budding next year.

Understanding that there are not that many branches to prune and pruning them now will only put the tree into the category of a trunk chop, which is OK, because in my way of looking at things is just another step in forcing pre-bonsai material to start bulking up and developing a bunch of short internodes.

In my experience with Scots Pines most of them have been seedlings, liners, or ignored small nursery trees. With the seedlings and liners I have found cutting back at different times will give you some interesting things to work on. If you start out in the direction of trying to make the tree conform to some specific style, with trees this young, you will usually end in disappointment. You need to let the tree grow for a while after it has be whacked. Then look at it again and maybe whack it again. At some point the tree will tell you I want to do this, or your skill and eye will develop to a point where your eye will tell what to do with the tree.

The bottom line is that most people are too impatient with young trees. They think they can start out today with a couple of cuts here and a little wire there and voila, there is a bonsai. The truth is, most of the ubiquitous instant bonsai are the results of much larger trees being cut down into a bonsai. The little stuff has to be periodically grown up and cut down. What do you think nature does over years to create the images we covet so much. How you do this is not always the result of some predetermined plan and often the best ones are the results of cutting, growing, cutting, and looking at, and growing some more. The good bonsai is a serendipitous arrival at that point where your artistic vision runs head long into where the tree is going.
 
Last edited:

Harunobu

Chumono
Messages
793
Reaction score
977
Location
Netherlands
USDA Zone
7b
Actually, to me these seedlings look like pines that grew in the shade.

I'd try to see if they do indeed backbud with full sun, full ground, water during dry weather and a good amount of fertilizer.

There are seedlings similar to these in my local forests. But I found others that seemed to be 1 or 2 year older and that somehow back-budded more heavily. Those I collected and I am now directing energy and growth the proper way for good taper.

Sacrificing a few years to get the backbudding needed isn't impatience. Sure, too many people are too impatient. But when the tree is incapable to produce the backbudding needed, patience won't do you any good. It's only that after the proper backbudding has been obtained patience becomes useful.

But, as I found badbudding seedlings in the wild it ought to be possible to get backbudding on these ones. Otherwise, how did nature do it?
 
Last edited:

GO-OK

Mame
Messages
125
Reaction score
5
Location
Indianapolis, north side
Right now fertilize, place in full sun and allow them to grow freely.
If you're looking for a shohin in a few years wire them and twist them up, plant them in some very hard fast draining soil that you can leave them in for a few years without worrying about it breaking down etc....you can pinch in a few years.

Julian Adams is an excellent source of information on scots pine. I've followed his work cycle for the last three to four years with great success. Don't treat them like a black pine though. There are exceptions but those don't apply in this case.
 

GO-OK

Mame
Messages
125
Reaction score
5
Location
Indianapolis, north side
Looking again, your soil particle size is also too small for any real root growth. You need good air exchange to occur. Particle size makes an enormous difference in the rate of growth for a tree in a container.
 
Top Bottom