Scotts pine back bud.

Gbhphoto77

Sapling
Messages
25
Reaction score
14
Location
S Michigan
So. I have a Scotts, pine the lower branches need to back bud. I have spoken to several people and got just as many diffrent yet contradictory methods to making that happen. Everything from needle pulling to removing candles or not removing candles. Anyone actually do these pines and have methods proven to work? Also when would these action be carried out?
 

Attachments

  • 20220604_181137.jpg
    20220604_181137.jpg
    398 KB · Views: 109

Gbhphoto77

Sapling
Messages
25
Reaction score
14
Location
S Michigan
So. I have a Scotts, pine the lower branches need to back bud. I have spoken to several people and got just as many diffrent yet contradictory methods to making that happen. Everything from needle pulling to removing candles or not removing candles. Anyone actually do these pines and have methods proven to work? Also when would these action be carried out?
Ok so i asked this before. But i followed the advice and now it just got longer. No back buds. But its covered with needles. Do i cut them back to let more light in.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,455
Reaction score
10,725
Location
Netherlands
What advice did you follow, exactly? I'm seeing emerging candles at this time of year and that's kind of a bad sign with winter approaching.

Backbudding requires strength and it can take a while before the buds show up, they might form over winter even.
I myself haven't found a proven method but reducing the shoots near mid fall seems to be a generally accepted technique.
I also reduced the foliar mass of last year's growth to 6-8 pairs of needles and I'll remove those completely near the end of fall.
 

p_anova

Mame
Messages
194
Reaction score
147
Location
Washington DC. DC ARBORETUM IS BEHIND MY HOUSE!
These are the notes I got and I am currently applying it to mine. Like you, I am waiting for more buds to develop.

Scotts in Development:

To backbud: increase traffic in branch, allow candles to get foliage mass
Once we get back buds, allow needles to elongate and harden off. Remove apical tip on new candles leaving 2 needles. Usually done in Summer.
 

Gbhphoto77

Sapling
Messages
25
Reaction score
14
Location
S Michigan
What advice did you follow, exactly? I'm seeing emerging candles at this time of year and that's kind of a bad sign with winter approaching.

Backbudding requires strength and it can take a while before the buds show up, they might form over winter even.
I myself haven't found a proven method but reducing the shoots near mid fall seems to be a generally accepted technique.
I also reduced the foliar mass of last year's growth to 6-8 pairs of needles and I'll remove those completely near the end of fall.
Ill pst a current photo soon this was from spring. Sorry
 

PeaceLoveBonsai

Chumono
Messages
891
Reaction score
2,994
Location
Franklin, TN
USDA Zone
7a
I’ve found when I focus on the overall health of a Scotts pine, it will backbud.

I follow the general outline posted above by @p_anova.

But I also focus on good roots, proper fertilization and wiring for both aesthetics and health.

This tree had no backbuds when I began training.

Now it has dozens.

Focus on making the best of what you have…then the buds will arrive.
EFBBF91C-97CF-4293-8709-B60183148A02.jpeg260D8D6B-95FF-4475-99D7-85658444AE36.jpeg
 

Gbhphoto77

Sapling
Messages
25
Reaction score
14
Location
S Michigan
Here are the current pics
 

Attachments

  • 20220923_160353.jpg
    20220923_160353.jpg
    332.8 KB · Views: 84
  • 20220923_160358.jpg
    20220923_160358.jpg
    290 KB · Views: 92

p_anova

Mame
Messages
194
Reaction score
147
Location
Washington DC. DC ARBORETUM IS BEHIND MY HOUSE!
I’ve found when I focus on the overall health of a Scotts pine, it will backbud.

I follow the general outline posted above by @p_anova.

But I also focus on good roots, proper fertilization and wiring for both aesthetics and health.

This tree had no backbuds when I began training.

Now it has dozens.

Focus on making the best of what you have…then the buds will arrive.
View attachment 456751View attachment 456752
Very nice! How many years between pics?
 

PeaceLoveBonsai

Chumono
Messages
891
Reaction score
2,994
Location
Franklin, TN
USDA Zone
7a
Very nice! How many years between pics?
About 4 years.

Here’s the thread on its progress.

 

Gbhphoto77

Sapling
Messages
25
Reaction score
14
Location
S Michigan
Very nice! How many years between pics?
Got health. No buds. Just longer and longer branches. The only buds are at the apex. Thats it. Lots of roots lots of the white.. myco stuff. No buds
 

clem

Chumono
Messages
780
Reaction score
1,875
Location
Normandy, France
Are you sure it is a "pure" scotts pine ? the needles are so long and the branches and candles are so thick.. maybe an hybrid with australian black pine ? 🤔
 

Gbhphoto77

Sapling
Messages
25
Reaction score
14
Location
S Michigan
its absolutely possible. since this is a nursery tree that was in terrible shape. 10 years back
 

MaciekA

Shohin
Messages
390
Reaction score
749
Location
Northwest Oregon
USDA Zone
8
With every pine species I've had success with, the broad strokes are mostly the same. Works well for scots, lodgepole, shore, JRP, JBP, JWP, and korean pines:

- Transition the root system into non-junky, non-dense, non-decaying, aggregate, porous, pea-sized, durable soil (if not yet done so, and either gradually or suddenly, depending on effective age of tree). For me, this is pumice/lava. Chunky, colonizer-gauge, air-breathing roots in my pines seem to correlate with vigorous shoot tips with lustrous, skin-poke sharp, waxy, good-colored needles
- Get the pine's entire foliage in direct blazing sun and occasionally rotate for exposure. Ideally, reward the tree that needs this treatment the most with a location that gets the most sun hours of out all locations.
- Increase rate of transpiration and respiration for higher vigor. You want to cycle water/air through the soil rapidly, since both transpiration and respiration are drivers of growth (see: Physiology of Woody Plants, Stephen Pallardy). This means a taller soil volume (all other things equal, I wish I could go back in time and avoid mindlessly increasing all dimensions of pine pots as opposed to exclusively column height, live and learn...). Along with this, ideally, expose that soil volume to a higher surface area of air flow (pond baskets, mesh grow boxes, etc). Except for pines which are planted out in the field, the highest vigor I have seen is when using pond baskets and colanders or similar-construction pots. I stack them vertically as I see roots poke out the bottom to keep root length increasing. I feel like my stacked-colander pines grow much faster than ones in flats, even with the flats having the large top surface area for air flow.
- Lower the branches on which interior budding is desired. There are many theories and hints in the academic literature about how this all works, but I've observed that the interiors of branches aren't going to backbud as willingly if they're shaded out, or if their tips are super vigorous while also sitting higher than those interior dormant buds. Notice @PeaceLoveBonsai 's comment about wiring for aesthetics, where in the attached before/after photo you see the initially upturned branches now nicely lowered down, which exposes interiors to light and prevents tip-generated auxin from migrating up from the tips into those interiors, further preventing dormant bud suppression in those interiors. Some academic literature suggests that dormant buds that see a lower auxin content (produced by shoot tips) relative to cytokinin content (produced by the roots) are more likely to develop, all other things equal, and auxin (as Ryan Neil says) "doesn't like to go up hill". If you believe the theory is true, then combining this strategy with aggressive root expansion means that the average interior wood now has an excess in cytokinin and a deficit of auxin. Scots can push buds out of relatively old wood directly out of the trunk in these conditions (shore pine too).
- Allow branches to attain length and vigor, like @p_anova said, higher sap "traffic" flowing past dormant buds, all other things equal, raises the likelihood they begin to develop.
- Reduce the total number of tips at the ends of those vigorous branches at end of year ( @p_anova 's suggestion again). If our suspicions are correct about tip-emitted auxin suppressing interior dormant buds, then fewer emitters at the tips raises the likelihood of interior bud development. Also even if the prevalent theories about auxin are wrong or "not the whole story", there's also the dominating effect of the tip shoot's demand for sugar (dominating over those interior dormant buds or existing shoots, that is). As this academic paper states, "the shoot tip's strong demand for sugars inhibits axillary bud outgrowth by limiting the amount of sugar translocated to those buds". Finally, also seems that increasing the distance between the vigorous tip(s) and the to-be-preserved interior shoots enhances the development of the latter. You can see some of this in the "poodling" strategies used by Telperion Farms / Gary Wood and also many Japanese or Japan-trained pine growers. I personally believe (anecdotally) that this strategy also works for branches too, not just the apex.

I like to think the last point as a personal rule of: "ALL pine tips are eventually sacrificial". Pass the baton inwards as the interior strengthens, but also, weaken or distance the exterior when the time is right to ensure the best outcome (or remove the exterior entirely when the interior has become is strong enough to stand on its own).
 

Gbhphoto77

Sapling
Messages
25
Reaction score
14
Location
S Michigan
With every pine species I've had success with, the broad strokes are mostly the same. Works well for scots, lodgepole, shore, JRP, JBP, JWP, and korean pines:

- Transition the root system into non-junky, non-dense, non-decaying, aggregate, porous, pea-sized, durable soil (if not yet done so, and either gradually or suddenly, depending on effective age of tree). For me, this is pumice/lava. Chunky, colonizer-gauge, air-breathing roots in my pines seem to correlate with vigorous shoot tips with lustrous, skin-poke sharp, waxy, good-colored needles
- Get the pine's entire foliage in direct blazing sun and occasionally rotate for exposure. Ideally, reward the tree that needs this treatment the most with a location that gets the most sun hours of out all locations.
- Increase rate of transpiration and respiration for higher vigor. You want to cycle water/air through the soil rapidly, since both transpiration and respiration are drivers of growth (see: Physiology of Woody Plants, Stephen Pallardy). This means a taller soil volume (all other things equal, I wish I could go back in time and avoid mindlessly increasing all dimensions of pine pots as opposed to exclusively column height, live and learn...). Along with this, ideally, expose that soil volume to a higher surface area of air flow (pond baskets, mesh grow boxes, etc). Except for pines which are planted out in the field, the highest vigor I have seen is when using pond baskets and colanders or similar-construction pots. I stack them vertically as I see roots poke out the bottom to keep root length increasing. I feel like my stacked-colander pines grow much faster than ones in flats, even with the flats having the large top surface area for air flow.
- Lower the branches on which interior budding is desired. There are many theories and hints in the academic literature about how this all works, but I've observed that the interiors of branches aren't going to backbud as willingly if they're shaded out, or if their tips are super vigorous while also sitting higher than those interior dormant buds. Notice @PeaceLoveBonsai 's comment about wiring for aesthetics, where in the attached before/after photo you see the initially upturned branches now nicely lowered down, which exposes interiors to light and prevents tip-generated auxin from migrating up from the tips into those interiors, further preventing dormant bud suppression in those interiors. Some academic literature suggests that dormant buds that see a lower auxin content (produced by shoot tips) relative to cytokinin content (produced by the roots) are more likely to develop, all other things equal, and auxin (as Ryan Neil says) "doesn't like to go up hill". If you believe the theory is true, then combining this strategy with aggressive root expansion means that the average interior wood now has an excess in cytokinin and a deficit of auxin. Scots can push buds out of relatively old wood directly out of the trunk in these conditions (shore pine too).
- Allow branches to attain length and vigor, like @p_anova said, higher sap "traffic" flowing past dormant buds, all other things equal, raises the likelihood they begin to develop.
- Reduce the total number of tips at the ends of those vigorous branches at end of year ( @p_anova 's suggestion again). If our suspicions are correct about tip-emitted auxin suppressing interior dormant buds, then fewer emitters at the tips raises the likelihood of interior bud development. Also even if the prevalent theories about auxin are wrong or "not the whole story", there's also the dominating effect of the tip shoot's demand for sugar (dominating over those interior dormant buds or existing shoots, that is). As this academic paper states, "the shoot tip's strong demand for sugars inhibits axillary bud outgrowth by limiting the amount of sugar translocated to those buds". Finally, also seems that increasing the distance between the vigorous tip(s) and the to-be-preserved interior shoots enhances the development of the latter. You can see some of this in the "poodling" strategies used by Telperion Farms / Gary Wood and also many Japanese or Japan-trained pine growers. I personally believe (anecdotally) that this strategy also works for branches too, not just the apex.

I like to think the last point as a personal rule of: "ALL pine tips are eventually sacrificial". Pass the baton inwards as the interior strengthens, but also, weaken or distance the exterior when the time is right to ensure the best outcome (or remove the exterior entirely when the interior has become is strong enough to stand on its own).
now thats awsome! thank you!!!
are you from Poland? I was born in Warszawa.
 
Top Bottom