Scroll for Japanese Exhibition

[kakejiku]

This is a scroll I have been working on for about 8 months now which I am trying to get entry into a Hyousou Exhibition in Tokyo.

It will be a Yamato Hyougu style scroll, probably with a machined ebony jikusaki and Takuboku hanging string. Today I got the Mimiori, Hassou and Jikubukuro completed, put a layer of Fukushima Silk Souurauchi along the top, Souurauchi for the remainder, the Jikutasuke with Fukushima Kinu and put back on the drying board.

It will be about 54 inches long by 1.75 feet wide when completed.

 

[Smoke]

Nice scroll.

I have this overwhelming need to say..."Everybody Wang Chung tonight". Did everyone understand that? Thanks for saying "drying board" I would have been lost otherwise.

 

[A Random User]

Jonathan I like the scroll very much, I think the color blue works very well with the image.
I also really like the rust color orange/red you have choosen to accompany it.
Thanks very much for posting this, and good luck in trying to get it in. Let us know how
it goes.

 

[kakejiku]

Nice scroll.

I have this overwhelming need to say..."Everybody Wang Chung tonight". Did everyone understand that? Thanks for saying "drying board" I would have been lost otherwise.

I know there may be difficulty with the terminology, but these are basic terms that would be known by someone who has studied to make scrolls. It is like you using nebari, jin or chokkan...

This artwork done by Polish artist and I know how I would use it if I had an appropriate bonsai...maybe 2015...

 

[Smoke]

I know there may be difficulty with the terminology, but these are basic terms that would be known by someone who has studied to make scrolls. It is like you using nebari, jin or chokkan...

This artwork done by Polish artist and I know how I would use it if I had an appropriate bonsai...maybe 2015...

The words you quoted are perfectly appropriate for a bonsai forum. Your terminology may be appropriate for a "scroll" forum, where its inhabitants may find that artform amusing enough to study the terminology.

This has been discussed at IBC ad nauseam even by people like Kora Dalager and William Valavanis, who both co host tour trips to Japan and are both probably the USA's leading authorities on bonsai display in America.

It is also customary to offer english terms in paranthesis to those that may not be familiar with Japanese terms, and is kinda rude to expect people to look them up for themselves.

You have made remarks before about your threads not recieveing many questions or remarks and this is probably the leading reason why. Couple scrolls not being a very popular subject here anyway as well as a post full of Greek and people just don't bother.

There is probably no one here more passionate about scrolls than I and these posts are not very interesting to me (information wise) and I love scrolls.
Just sayin.....

 

[dick benbow]

Smoke, I might challenge your thoughts about you being the most devoted scroll fan here. So often I see videos on You-tube where the photographer in Japan at major events takes every angle of the bonsai ad nausium, a decent shot of the tenpai or kusamono, then blurrs past the scroll. I can't tell you how that rankles me.

It used to bother me that Jonathon uses japanese words of which I had no understanding. But it took me back to my apprentice days with a japanese gardener. I spent two years under his tutledge to learn design and maintenance. He taught and i learned. If I didn't get something it was up to me to get it thru delving into the translation of lanquages. So with that background, I just figured that was the way it was. Jonathon probably learned that same way so why wouldn't he teach similarly.

I don't disagree with you that it would be nice to have english in parenthesis, but I also know
what it took before to learn something better because I had to dig for it. I also know many times there is no word in english that translates well from japanese.

As an avid teacher ( and student) I know each of us learns differently from each other and that methods often have to be designed to get thru to the majority of the classroom. To be honest, I'm just glad maples-san is willing to teach, even if i have to dig for it.

I hope in NO WAY that my comments affends either smoke or kakejiku, both of which I appreciate to have helped me tremendously in my path for knowledge while on this chatline.

 

[Smoke]

Smoke, I might challenge your thoughts about you being the most devoted scroll fan here. So often I see videos on You-tube where the photographer in Japan at major events takes every angle of the bonsai ad nausium, a decent shot of the tenpai or kusamono, then blurrs past the scroll. I can't tell you how that rankles me.

It used to bother me that Jonathon uses japanese words of which I had no understanding. But it took me back to my apprentice days with a japanese gardener. I spent two years under his tutledge to learn design and maintenance. He taught and i learned. If I didn't get something it was up to me to get it thru delving into the translation of lanquages. So with that background, I just figured that was the way it was. Jonathon probably learned that same way so why wouldn't he teach similarly.

I don't disagree with you that it would be nice to have english in parenthesis, but I also know
what it took before to learn something better because I had to dig for it. I also know many times there is no word in english that translates well from japanese.

As an avid teacher ( and student) I know each of us learns differently from each other and that methods often have to be designed to get thru to the majority of the classroom. To be honest, I'm just glad maples-san is willing to teach, even if i have to dig for it.

I hope in NO WAY that my comments affends either smoke or kakejiku, both of which I appreciate to have helped me tremendously in my path for knowledge while on this chatline.

I'm speaking of contributions to this part of the forum, not a scroll fan in general.

I have reviewed your text and it has given me pause. I get it now. I am spending way too much time on explaining how to do things in a manner which makes it easy even for the casual viewer. It will be much simpler to just post a few pictures and let them just figure it out.

Thanks Dick you just made my life much simpler.

 

[kakejiku]

I'm speaking of contributions to this part of the forum, not a scroll fan in general.

I have reviewed your text and it has given me pause. I get it now. I am spending way too much time on explaining how to do things in a manner which makes it easy even for the casual viewer. It will be much simpler to just post a few pictures and let them just figure it out.

Thanks Dick you just made my life much simpler.

Al...I think your reply is a little quick and does not truly address Benbow sama's statements. There are times when I explain in detail and avoid the terms. This is particularly true when someone requests a custom scroll from me.

In this particular thread, it was stated that the scroll was being prepped for submission to a Hyousou exhibition in Japan. (Hyousou is the word that encompasses Kakejiku (Scrolls), Byoubu (folding Screens), Fusuma (Framed Paper Sliding Doors that have decorative/non-transparent paper), shoji (Framded Paper Sliding doors with transparent papers), and some other products as well that you may not know.

So, it is not being prepared specifically for bonsai, although the picture denotes a specific geographic location in Japan that I could use it for a display, but the reason for it's creation is something outside of bonsai. In a previous thread I wrote the following:
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?13538-Display-Styles/page2
The third point pertains to the scroll styles used. In general, this is a very difficult subject, and even the Gaddou Kyouhon has some things written in it vaguely that could be interpreted incorrectly. The Gaddou system emphasizes the use of narrow hashira...Rinpou Hyougu style, but they typically do not put it in a Sandan Hyougu...so it is usually not a true Chakake scroll. I have not heard or seen this point commonly emphasized among Keidou practitioners.

I did not further clarify in that thread that this book in Japanese, written by Yamamoto, outlined and called some scroll styles incorrectly. For example, it stated that the Maru Hyougu (scroll style) could also be called a Mikiri Hyougu (scroll style). This is incorrect information, because a Maru style scroll uses one Ichimonji (the cloths with arabesque patterns that border the top and the bottom of a painting) whereas the Mikiri uses two Ichimonji one on top of the other, but they have different colors and patterns....So even Japanese bonsai artists do not understand this concept correctly.

I enjoy the complex threads, that discus deep subjects which garner more input...and I think Al does a good job of that, but honestly there are times that I do not understand some vocabulary of specific bonsai techniques, because I do not do bonsai. Does not mean I come in and complain, but take the time to ask questions when I am vending at conventions, such as where does this tree grow in a natural habitat etc...

So the easiest way to relieve your confusion is to define the concepts for you.
Yamato Hyougu style scroll: Is a three step style scroll (meaning three different cloths (an Ichimonji (which is described above), Chumawashi/Chuberi (Intermediate cloth usually a silk with an arabesque pattern), and usually a single color Ten and Chi (Top and bottom cloth). The Yamato Hyougu style also incorporates Fuutai (which are the strips of the same ichimonji cloth hanging vertically from the top of the scroll to the top of the Chuumawashi)

machined ebony jikusaki: Please go to this link to read about the Jikusaki. http://www.customjapanesecalligraphy.com/Create_Custom_Scrolls.phpand
Takuboku hanging string: Takuboku is the name for a specific hanging string. It is white with blue and black fleck pattern.
Mimiori: Is the hem on the vertical sides of the scroll.
Hassou and Jikubukuro completed: These are the papers attached to the top and bottom which are used to affix the dowels.
Fukushima Silk Souurauchi: Instead of using paper it uses silk on certain back portions of the scroll to protect it during handling and enhance longevity. It is very thin specialized silk produced in Fukushima.
Souurauchi: Is the last layer of paper affixed to the scroll.
Jikutasuke with Fukushima Kinu (Kinu is the word for silk in Japanese): The jikutasuke are pieces of cloth or paper placed along the edges where the bottom dowel will hang to provide extra support. This is one place where a lot of tear occur and I have redone several scrolls that have rips in this area.

Hope this provides more information for you to understand the original post better.

My point is that we can learn from anybody and anything. It depends on our attitude though. I was vending at a bonsai convention, and somebody asked me to teach them how to tie the hanging string. So I started showing them, and another bonsai person came over and showed me a video of a famous Japanese bonsai artist demonstrating tying the makihimo. I patiently watched, and thought in my head, well yeah, that is the basic technique that my Sensei first taught me. I was teaching the person how to tie the string so that it completely slips free when pulled. (There are also about 5-6 different techniques for tying the Makihimo.) So now the person I was originally trying to show, is confused because they have two different ways in their head. So after redemonstrating and practicing we got the confusion sorted out. The person who showed the video left for some reason and did not continue to learn the other method of tying the Makihimo in a different manner...I thought that strange as that would have been a free learning opportunity.

Also hoping everyone will have more respect for the art of Hyousou...Particularly in the bonsai community...

 

[Smoke]

So the easiest way to relieve your confusion is to define the concepts for you.
Yamato Hyougu style scroll: Is a three step style scroll (meaning three different cloths (an Ichimonji (which is described above), Chumawashi/Chuberi (Intermediate cloth usually a silk with an arabesque pattern), and usually a single color Ten and Chi (Top and bottom cloth). The Yamato Hyougu style also incorporates Fuutai (which are the strips of the same ichimonji cloth hanging vertically from the top of the scroll to the top of the Chuumawashi)

machined ebony jikusaki: Please go to this link to read about the Jikusaki. http://www.customjapanesecalligraphy.com/Create_Custom_Scrolls.phpand
Takuboku hanging string: Takuboku is the name for a specific hanging string. It is white with blue and black fleck pattern.
Mimiori: Is the hem on the vertical sides of the scroll.
Hassou and Jikubukuro completed: These are the papers attached to the top and bottom which are used to affix the dowels.
Fukushima Silk Souurauchi: Instead of using paper it uses silk on certain back portions of the scroll to protect it during handling and enhance longevity. It is very thin specialized silk produced in Fukushima.
Souurauchi: Is the last layer of paper affixed to the scroll.
Jikutasuke with Fukushima Kinu (Kinu is the word for silk in Japanese): The jikutasuke are pieces of cloth or paper placed along the edges where the bottom dowel will hang to provide extra support. This is one place where a lot of tear occur and I have redone several scrolls that have rips in this area.

Hope this provides more information for you to understand the original post better.

My point is that we can learn from anybody and anything. It depends on our attitude though. I was vending at a bonsai convention, and somebody asked me to teach them how to tie the hanging string. So I started showing them, and another bonsai person came over and showed me a video of a famous Japanese bonsai artist demonstrating tying the makihimo. I patiently watched, and thought in my head, well yeah, that is the basic technique that my Sensei first taught me. I was teaching the person how to tie the string so that it completely slips free when pulled. (There are also about 5-6 different techniques for tying the Makihimo.) So now the person I was originally trying to show, is confused because they have two different ways in their head. So after redemonstrating and practicing we got the confusion sorted out. The person who showed the video left for some reason and did not continue to learn the other method of tying the Makihimo in a different manner...I thought that strange as that would have been a free learning opportunity.

Also hoping everyone will have more respect for the art of Hyousou...Particularly in the bonsai community...

Thanks I appreciate the translations. That could have been added in the original post and made the whole thing more interesting. Since this thread neither asked for comments, critiques or displayed any teaching of how to do anything, it seems that it was an informational post about entering ones work in a display in Japan. That could have been done by using only the first line of the post and leaving it at that. The post then goes on to chronical work done on the scroll with no verbage for someone with no training in the art nor access to scroll mounting in general. (Of course those interested can do the work and find plenty) I said those interested.

Now a question about the scroll. What is your thinking about introducing a "man" image in a scroll used for bonsai? Since traditional formal bonsai display in a Tokonoma (alchove) is based on three point concepts (Japanese Trilogy) of Man, Heaven and Earth. With the tree being "man" the scroll heaven and the accent earth, wouldn't a man in the scroll be redundent?

I have several scrolls with Man in them and have refrained from using them due to this clash. I am not sure Kathy Shaner has the training to recognize such, nor if she cares for that matter, but past judges have. I have been taught from Hideko Metaxis that all references to man must not be present for the display to work. Religious anthropormorphic forms are for some reason excluded.

 

[kakejiku]

Thanks I appreciate the translations. That could have been added in the original post and made the whole thing more interesting. Since this thread neither asked for comments, critiques or displayed any teaching of how to do anything, it seems that it was an informational post about entering ones work in a display in Japan. That could have been done by using only the first line of the post and leaving it at that. The post then goes on to chronical work done on the scroll with no verbage for someone with no training in the art nor access to scroll mounting in general. (Of course those interested can do the work and find plenty) I said those interested.

Now a question about the scroll. What is your thinking about introducing a "man" image in a scroll used for bonsai? Since traditional formal bonsai display in a Tokonoma (alchove) is based on three point concepts (Japanese Trilogy) of Man, Heaven and Earth. With the tree being "man" the scroll heaven and the accent earth, wouldn't a man in the scroll be redundent?

I have several scrolls with Man in them and have refrained from using them due to this clash. I am not sure Kathy Shaner has the training to recognize such, nor if she cares for that matter, but past judges have. I have been taught from Hideko Metaxis that all references to man must not be present for the display to work. Religious anthropormorphic forms are for some reason excluded.

I guess that would go back to the argument in my previous thread about differences between Keidou and Gadou display. Perhaps, Metaxis san studied under the Keidou style...I have never met her, but heard many good things about her knowledge of display.

I am travelling at the moment and do not have access to my files or books, but I remember two examples of displays in the Gaddou book that utilize travelers/person in the scrolls of the display...Also, nowhere in the Gadou kyouhon (teaching books) have I ever come across reading about the Man, Heaven, Earth idea...(Not saying that it does not exist in Gadou...but I have not come across it) When I get back and have time I will try to show those displays and translate meanings.

 

[kakejiku]

BTW...good example of a Yamto Hyougu scroll. Three different cloths with fuutai that are the same as the ichimonji.

 

[edprocoat]

Perhaps this is a stupid question, but are the styles like the "Yamto Hyougu" and the "ichimonji" are they named after the artists that created that particular style or is that a region specific name? I find the artwork on scrolls such as these interesting, I have often wondered about the material, and I caught in your first post , silk, so I assume that's the medium the scroll is made upon. One more question, is this ink or paints that they are drawn with? I have never seen a scroll like this in person, I have only been to one Bonsai show and there were no scrolls there.

ed

 

[Smoke]

BTW...good example of a Yamto Hyougu scroll. Three different cloths with fuutai that are the same as the ichimonji.

Thanks, I have many. BTW, I only know two ways to tie the string. One by Hideko, and one by my teachers wife, Atsuku Kinoshita.

Teacher and wife looking at some of my scrolls.

 

[dick benbow]

Hey Smoke, for the quests, did you get each scroll out and display it or do you keep the scrolls stored in this way....fully opened.

 

[Smoke]

Hey Smoke, for the quests, did you get each scroll out and display it or do you keep the scrolls stored in this way....fully opened.

No it was for a Kathy Shaner workshop. I supplied about 8 stands and a sampleing of scrolls for a chance to change a display at the 2010 Kazari. I did not bring them all due to space restrictions.

No my scrolls are in a waterproof, smoke proof, insect proof container in my closet.

 

[kakejiku]

but are the styles like the "Yamto Hyougu" and the "ichimonji" are they named after the artists that created that particular style or is that a region specific name?

You are asking about two different things, but it is not a stupid question. Hyougu is a general term for scrolls. The name preceding it denotes a specific pattern of cloths and format in which those cloths are attached. So there is Yamato Hyougu, Sandan Hyougu, Butsu Hyougu etc...

Ichimonji is a specific type of cloth called Kinran, that is attached to the top and bottom of the artwork. After it is attached to the scroll it is referred to as Ichimonji.

 

[kakejiku]

I find the artwork on scrolls such as these interesting, I have often wondered about the material, and I caught in your first post , silk, so I assume that's the medium the scroll is made upon. One more question, is this ink or paints that they are drawn with?

Artwork can be painted on paper, silk or specialized silks.

The cloths used to frame the artwork are typically silks, but I have also made out of cottons. Some are pure silks and some have blended weaves such as silk and cotton, silk and paper etc.

Sumi ink is most commonly used...traditional sumi-e only uses monochrome.

 

[edprocoat]

Artwork can be painted on paper, silk or specialized silks.

The cloths used to frame the artwork are typically silks, but I have also made out of cottons. Some are pure silks and some have blended weaves such as silk and cotton, silk and paper etc.

Sumi ink is most commonly used...traditional sumi-e only uses monochrome.

The ones that I have seen pictures of that are done in monochrome only are the ones that are most visually appealing to me, although I have seen ones that are colored in pastels that are beautiful too. It seems like the monochrome ones present an image of age and allow the mind to fill in the colors, almost like you become part of the image as it draws you in, especially the more minimal scenes in monochrome.

ed

 

[dick benbow]

I ran across a wonderful video on you tube that i hope will help those trying to grasp this art.

This is the second of two but finding the first will be easy enough once you have one of them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3pEhTsaF04

 

[stonener]

Tokonoma

Hey Dick
That's the best link ever!
Who, What, Where, When & Why!
Confusion no longer an excuse...
THANKS A MILLION