Second Juniper Styling - Feedback Please (ignore previous post)

[one_bonsai]

 

[Vance Wood]

It is the typical development of a beginner's Procumbens Juniper. It is too tall and too thin. You wanted honesty I assume? It is not bad but you need to look at the development of a bonsai from a different angle especially when starting with this kind of material. You will probably hear don't worry about it, it will develop over time. It will not. If you leave it alone and let it regrow itself you might have luck with it down the road in a few years once you understand what you should have done when you started out. But you did do and have done the best thing you can do and that is START, no body gets anywhere without the first effort. Trouble is; most do not have good instruction in the beginning. Most of us have grown making a lot of mistakes and learning from them. In the process we have made a lot of bad and or dead bonsai.

 

[Adair M]

View attachment 219929

Cut it off at the red line.



Not a bad start!

 

[Music4cash]

Looks good...I agree with the statements about the trunk being too thin. I'd like to see it cut back all the way to the first branch. You could wire that first branch down and make a cascade. Or wire it up to make an informal upright. Either way you get a better taper.

I'm not sure if the tree could survive such an extreme trunk chop or if it has to be done in stages. I'd love to hear from the more experienced members about how to remove larger portions of a tree.

 

[Adair M]

Looks good...I agree with the statements about the trunk being too thin. I'd like to see it cut back all the way to the first branch. You could wire that first branch down and make a cascade. Or wire it up to make an informal upright. Either way you get a better taper.

I'm not sure if the tree could survive such an extreme trunk chop or if it has to be done in stages. I'd love to hear from the more experienced members about how to remove larger portions of a tree.

Chopping at the first branch is just far too drastic.

This little tree makes a pleasing little tree if cut at the red line. Is it a world class tree? No. But it won’t be ugly, and over time the owner can develop pads, and it will fill out. With time, the trunk will thicken a little. It is what it is.

Chopping to the first branch doesn’t get you much. Oh, I suppose a bit of taper, but, I think the owner will have a lot more fun developing branches, and wiring than doing a single chop, then doing nothing for three years while it grows out again.

 

[River's Edge]

Let the top grow until the trunk is the thickness you wish. In the meantime develop the lower portion. Restrict the lower branch in growth and cut back. Balance the lower branches and develop the interior foliage by progressive cutback. Begin to develop a new apex one whorl below where Adair has indicated. If you also select a front and wire the top on an angle to the back then the resulting scar from removing the old apex will be better positioned. By going down one whorl the trunk movement will be more interesting and easier to put a new apex in proper position for the final design.

 

[Music4cash]

Chopping at the first branch is just far too drastic.

This little tree makes a pleasing little tree if cut at the red line. Is it a world class tree? No. But it won’t be ugly, and over time the owner can develop pads, and it will fill out. With time, the trunk will thicken a little. It is what it is.

Chopping to the first branch doesn’t get you much. Oh, I suppose a bit of taper, but, I think the owner will have a lot more fun developing branches, and wiring than doing a single chop, then doing nothing for three years while it grows out again.

I agree there's nothing left to do for a few years if you chop at the first branch. I'm still curious though if the tree would survive such a drastic chop or would it need to be done in stages?

 

[one_bonsai]

With trunk chop as recommended

 

[0soyoung]

With trunk chop as recommended

I'm surprised how much that improved it!

Now to learn how to make pads.
And, I thought @Adair M was just a pine guy.

 

[one_bonsai]

I'm surprised how much that improved it!

Now to learn how to make pads.
And, I thought @Adair M was just a pine guy.

I don't know, it doesn't look like a tree.

 

[Music4cash]

I don't know, it doesn't look like a tree.

I think it is better shorter...The reason it doesn't look like a tree is the proportions are wrong. A real tree has more taper to the trunk than what you have. To make things worse when you stand on the ground and look at a tree the taper is exaggerated because the top of the tree is farther away from you. So if you want something that looks like a natural tree from the ground it needs to taper even more than a real tree would.

The problem is it takes years of clip and grow to force a tree to develop the kind of taper we want. That's why so many people advise developing a trunk and then making a bonsai around the trunk you have. That said there are many examples of very nice bonsai that look nothing like real life trees. The question is what are you trying to do with this one.

Also remember that I too am a complete beginner, and am generally talking out my ass....

 

[Adair M]

I'm surprised how much that improved it!

Now to learn how to make pads.
And, I thought @Adair M was just a pine guy.

Oh, I have lots of tricks up my sleeves! Lol!!

 

[Music4cash]

I also still wonder how much of the trunk you can chop off without killing the tree, I've often read the rule "don't remove more than 1/3rd of the foliage at a time, but we seem to have already gone beyond that on this tree, and I've seen many demonstrations where much more is taken off. I've not seen much info on how extreme you can get with trunk chops....

 

[Adair M]

I don't know, it doesn't look like a tree.

Ok, now for the apex. For most beginners, the apex is the most difficult part. They tend to want to keep alternating branches, left, right, back, left, right, back...

But what really happens in virtually all trees is the tree loses the ability to transport water up from the roots to the apex. It can defy gravity only so far. So, when it gets close to its highest height, the foliage spreads out. The tree can lift water out, just not up. So, the apex becomes a little broom style tree up on top. So, don’t worry about whorles, bar branches, etc up in the apex, just spread everything out wide. Make it into a rounded dome shape. It takes some practice, and eventually you’ll get the hang of it.

Meanwhile, there’s a great FREE wiring tutorial on www.craftsy.com. Once you register, search for “bonsai”, and you’ll find it. Colin Lewis teaches it.

 

[Shibui]

I also still wonder how much of the trunk you can chop off without killing the tree

Different species will tolerate different pruning but most will survive far more than 1/3 reduction. I regularly cut trees, including junipers, down to the lowest branch to get better taper in long term projects.
Severe top reduction can have adverse effects - roots and part of the trunk that was primarily feeding that part of the tree are now redundant and can die off but usually sap flow is able to change, especially if the reduction is staged over several months or years.
Younger trees tolerate large reduction better than older material.
I guess the answer to this question is - 'It all depends'

 

[Csmdad]

Super recommend on the craftsy link, Adair. Thanks. I hadn't even remembered to check there for classes. It's been all - YouTube and books and YouTube and books and YouTube and blogs and websites and books.

 

[Music4cash]

But what really happens in virtually all trees is the tree loses the ability to transport water up from the roots to the apex. It can defy gravity only so far. So, when it gets close to its highest height, the foliage spreads out. The tree can lift water out, just not up. So, the apex becomes a little broom style tree up on top. So, don’t worry about whorles, bar branches, etc up in the apex, just spread everything out wide. Make it into a rounded dome shape. It takes some practice, and eventually you’ll get the hang of it.

Thanks for posting this. I never knew what to do with the apex because I had no concept of what real trees do.

 

[one_bonsai]

One thing I've realized (correct me if I'm wrong), but it's probably better to develop the trunk first, then develop the foliage and roots.

 

[Shibui]

There are many ways to achieve similar outcomes. Developing trunks first is one way. I prefer to work the roots very early and start working on good nebari right from the start. I think it is easier on the tree when trunk is small and branching is not well developed if drastic root reduction is needed. Starting roots from early seedlings seems to work quicker and better than on older trees.
So my program is usually develop roots and trunk first then develop branching and ramification (foliage?)

Beware of putting all the effort into developing trunks on trees that do not bud on older wood. Juniper and pines are examples. Some live shoots to cut back to later when developing taper and to develop the branches is essential and you may need to sacrifice some growth to keep suitable growth low and closer to the trunk.

 

[one_bonsai]

Beware of putting all the effort into developing trunks on trees that do not bud on older wood. Juniper and pines are examples. /

So with a Juniper, would I be better off using sacrificial branches to develop a thick, tapered trunk?