Seed thread - a few questions of course.

[willw86]

I recently received an order from RareExoticSeeds.com - out of Canada, a rare, exotic place - and I am pumped to get some of these going. I wanted to start a thread to keep track of my progress in a pseudoscientific manner. I ordered mostly temperate species, but made sure to include a few warmth-lovers that should keep me occupied for the next couple months. I have a small heating mat I will be using to give these warmer species a boost in my chilly room.

After doing some research, it appears that the Ficus benghalensis' leaves are too big for bonsai. I'm thinking they might become Christmas gifts for the extended family.

If I happen to have any wild successes with these, I will definitely be willing to exchange/share as I don't have a ton of room.

Questions:

• When cold-stratifying, I should put the seeds in a baggie with lightly-damp soil instead of dry in the bag, right?
• I plan on microwaving the soil (Miracle Gro Cactus/Citrus Mix, probably will mix with a little sand) before stratifying/sowing anything; would it also be beneficial to spray some Daconil in the soil to help prevent mold? Or hydrogen peroxide maybe?
• Are calamondin hardy on their own roots?
• Do you see any glaring dumb-assery in my plans below?

Seed List:

Acer ginnala – Amur maple – 100 seeds
Soak for 24 hours, stratify in fridge, germinate in early March.

Acer monspessulanum – Montpelier maple – 15 seeds
Soak for 24 hours, stratify in fridge, germinate in mid-late March.

Adansonia digitata – Baobab – 20 seeds
See this post for details: HUGE wealth of information on starting from seed/growing Baobab, whole thread is a pleasure to read, much thanks to @bjtieman, @hemmy, and @Leo in N E Illinois.

Basically, soak for 24 hours (starting with hot water), use rasp to break outer coat, re-soak for 24 hours (starting with hot water), husk should have swelled - carefully remove husk to expose root bud, sit on wet napkin in Tupperware under grow lights, once a root has formed, plant it. Needs to be planted in a tall container to accommodate large taproot.

Citrus mitis – Calamondin – 20 seeds
Soak overnight in warm water, stick on a wet napkin in Tupperware, plant when root forms. Not sure if these will be hardy on their own roots.

Ficus benghalensis – Banyan Fig – 200 seeds
Going to keep this one simple: plant in moist soil.

Lophophora williamsi – 20 seeds
Plant in sandy, moist soil. Couldn't resist when I saw these on the website, but no plans to consume. I think these actually would make a cool accent plant, possibly with the Baobab as they should be nicely developed around the same time, maybe 10-15 years. I read somewhere that they are really popular among cactus collectors in Asia, so they probably will be tough to find in the wild in the coming decades.

Pinus mugo pumilio – Dwarf Mugo Pine – 120 seeds
(Waiting until mid-late March) soak for 24 hours, plant in moist soil.

Zelkova serrata – Japanese Zelkova – 100 seeds
(It appears these only need 60 days of cold stratification, so I will wait until January) soak for 24 hours, stratify in fridge, germinate in mid-late March.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Not sure of the legal status of peyote in Canada, but don’t try bringing them down here for accent plants. It’s illegal to grow or posses in the US unless you’re a member of the Native American church or something. ?. That’s awesome though, sounds like you’ve done your research. Would be interested to see how the dwarf mugo seeds grow, you may end up with a wide variety of interesting genetics with that one.

 

[willw86]

Not sure of the legal status of peyote in Canada, but don’t try bringing them down here for accent plants. It’s illegal to grow or posses in the US unless you’re a member of the Native American church or something. ?. That’s awesome though, sounds like you’ve done your research. Would be interested to see how the dwarf mugo seeds grow, you may end up with a wide variety of interesting genetics with that one.

From what I understand, they are legal to grow unless intended for consumption/extraction. I don't think the DEA will be raiding my house and shooting my chihuahua for a couple cacti any time soon. As long as I don't do anything stupid, like post about them on the internet or something, I should be fine.

I'm curious about the mugos as well, they will definitely be a nice long-term project. I've always been fascinated by genetics so it will be really cool to see the different growth rates, etc.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Oh hahah I thought you were in Canada, my bad. Hmm, no, what you’re doing is definitely illegal, if you plant those seeds. You should probably look into it, it may be better to not advertise it on the internet. I’ve got 5 San Pedro cactus, but those are legal to grow, just not consume.

 

[TN_Jim]

Soil...
if you think there are pathogens in it, you wish you had an autoclave...you must keep it wet in a microwave, then cool repeat cool repeat etc. if you want autoclave-like, without moisture microwave is pointless

3 times? -4?

If you are going to do that, might as well sterilize everything...tools hands counter materials (not soil)... Bottle of alcohol, easy.

You can bleach-clean seeds but I don’t know germination of yours to recommend protocol

 

[TN_Jim]

Oh hahah I thought you were in Canada, my bad. Hmm, no, what you’re doing is definitely illegal, if you plant those seeds. You should probably look into it, it may be better to not advertise it on the internet. I’ve got 5 San Pedro cactus, but those are legal to grow, just not consume.

cactus fuzz

 

[ysrgrathe]

You don't need to sterilize miracle grow soil, it's already sterile.

 

[TN_Jim]

You don't need to sterilize miracle grow soil, it's already sterile.

no, it’s not...perhaps depending on how you use it

 

[Potawatomi13]

Not sure of the legal status of peyote in Canada, but don’t try bringing them down here for accent plants. It’s illegal to grow or posses in the US unless you’re a member of the Native American church or something. ?. That’s awesome though, sounds like you’ve done your research. Would be interested to see how the dwarf mugo seeds grow, you may end up with a wide variety of interesting genetics with that one.

Pretty sure that's BS. At least quite a few of us cactus collectors have had these in our collections.

 

[TN_Jim]

they take forever to make buttons right, longer than bonsai for example? I would love a cutting, not so much wild collected...of one of these. Flowers are amazing.

not local, but the iucn website (not just the red list)....is just amazing

https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/40967/121501921#conservation-actions

do you take the husk off a zelkova seed or wings on?

 

[Potawatomi13]

Over Thinking. How does seed land on ground?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Sterilized soil is the worst soil to work with.
As soon as it enters free air, it gets loaded with micro-organisms and not just the right ones. Most bagged soils have a lively micro community which can help the seeds germinate and even defend from the bad ones.
Experiments from back in the 1940's have shown that some pines just die in sterile soil, since it lacks micro organisms.

I cold stratify on damp cardboard nowadays. Its not very susceptible to bacteria and molds tend to be visually distinguishable. It can be changed with relative ease. Microwaved or water boiled to sterilize or even soaked in antibiotics. Seeds can lay on top and stay moist instead of wet like with paper towels. It's good stuff.

 

[TN_Jim]

Sterilized soil is the worst soil to work with.
As soon as it enters free air, it gets loaded with micro-organisms and not just the right ones.

I respect your experience and thoughts greatly, but that statement is just wrong.

Sure, if some mutualism is required or beneficial to germinate, no question...
and I can see the advantage to the blank slate of cardboard....and there are definite benifits to good microorganisms, but why sterilize anything then?

Like -no doc, don’t wash yer hands, they’re immediately gonna be covered in shit anyway...

I’ve tested this in a lab, and sterilized soil signicantly won. Sterilized tools and work area included brought germination rates to almost 100% with seeds not requiring a secondary mutualism to germinate.

Following germination, seedlings were put in an unsterilized arid mix and thrived. Sure, it depends, but that’s my quantitative duplicated experience with a distinct set of variables.

Stacked filter paper and sand were also included in these tests...in all cases, sterilized was significant, but soil was highest.

Used miracle grow seed starting mix for “soil”.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I respect your experience and thoughts greatly, but that statement is just wrong.

Sure, if some mutualism is required or beneficial to germinate, no question...
and I can see the advantage to the blank slate of cardboard....and there are definite benifits to good microorganisms, but why sterilize anything then?

Like -no doc, don’t wash yer hands, they’re immediately gonna be covered in shit anyway...

I’ve tested this in a lab, and sterilized soil signicantly won. Sterilized tools and work area included brought germination rates to almost 100% with seeds not requiring a secondary mutualism to germinate.

Following germination, seedlings were put in an unsterilized arid mix and thrived. Sure, it depends, but that’s my quantitative duplicated experience with a distinct set of variables.

Stacked filter paper and sand were also included in these tests...in all cases, sterilized was significant, but soil was highest.

Used miracle grow seed starting mix for “soil”.

In a laboratory setting, you're absolutely right. We're dealing however, with a home situation. Where people eat bread, fruit, walk in and out.. Where pathogens are combated with commensal flora instead of mercury chloride or ethanol.
If you're not working in a flow hood, and get your soil (usually punctured bags) from a garden store or home depot.. Then sterilization can hardly be done right. Unless you have a flow hood and all the means necessary to do everything correct and sanitary.
Soil microbiota are the hardcore of the hardcore. 20 minutes of sterilization did not kill every spore there is in our classroom experiments (N=150).
The thing with sterile soil, is that as soon as it's exposed to air and non-sterile tools, is that it provides a nutrient rich medium for everything and then some.
Chances are that pathogens could get in first, whereas in regular untreated soil, there's a balance; the constant biochemical warfare, lowering the chances of infection compared to exposed and 'microbiologically unbalanced' media.

I have tried working with sterilized soil in a home setting, and it performed way worse than non sterilized soils. I address this to the microbiome of the soil, because all other variables were the same.

It's good that we have different views on things, refreshing! I'm looking at this case from a practical perspective; to buy a rice cooker, a torch and modify a workspace so that it's 100% sterile is going to cost some effort and some money. Without proper protocols or little training, some people will have a hard time getting sterile results. I have trained people in flow hoods, and in a single (though exceptional) case it took around 9 months for the guy to finally realise that putting his hands in front of working material causes serious issues. Before that, there was a 95% infection rate from that guy, a person that had received 3 years of laboratory training already.

Let's say a rice cooker is around 40 bucks, a torch around 5 bucks, gloves and metalwork around 20 bucks, and a modified laboratory space can be done for around 150 bucks.
Just the rice cooker is equal to the price of 2000 mugo seeds from the website mentioned. Let's say germination rates drop to 1%. Then he'll have 20 pines. But two or three hours less work put into it. No need for special training or DIY studies, no need to get ethanol vapors inside the house.. And, from a certain perspective: selection at the gate, because only the strongest will make it.
At a company or a nursery, it would be worth the effort, time and money. In a home setting, I honestly think it's a waste of time and resources trying to achieve the hardly achievable. I would love to see it work, and I always like these kind of DIY-labs since I have built a few of my own. I'm a sucker for experimentation but I also have this urge to keep things within realistic boundaries.

If the goal is 100% germination, go ahead. I'll even throw in some extra tips and tricks! If 50-75% is acceptable, then I do not see the need to go the extra fifty miles.

 

[ThirdCoastBorn]

Hi Willw,

I have Dirr & Heuser's "Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation" checked out from the library right now and compared against it -- only point that stood out as different from your plans is (possibly) the ginnala. Depending on the seed's state and storage it's been in prior to you: "If excessively dry, 1-2 months warm / 3-4 months cold, OR light scarcification before 3-4 months cold". No idea how you would gauge "excessively" though?

Just started with seeds a couple months ago myself and several are still in the fridge so can't help you there. For the ones that didn't require any pre-treatment, I've been using little 12 cell trays with domes, plus bottom heat. I've been pretty happy with the germination rates (80% +) and discovered my problem has typically been burying depth when none sprouted.

 

[Yoppyx]

From what I understand, they are legal to grow unless intended for consumption/extraction. I don't think the DEA will be raiding my house and shooting my chihuahua for a couple cacti any time soon. As long as I don't do anything stupid, like post about them on the internet or something, I should be fine.

I'm curious about the mugos as well, they will definitely be a nice long-term project. I've always been fascinated by genetics so it will be really cool to see the different growth rates, etc.

Ooo me boy its legal in canada because of some ceramonies protected under law we can eat it. The states cant grow it though

 

[willw86]

Soil...
if you think there are pathogens in it, you wish you had an autoclave...you must keep it wet in a microwave, then cool repeat cool repeat etc. if you want autoclave-like, without moisture microwave is pointless
...

Sterilized soil is the worst soil to work with.
...

I respect your experience and thoughts greatly, but that statement is just wrong.
...

In a laboratory setting, you're absolutely right. We're dealing however, with a home situation. Where people eat bread, fruit, walk in and out.. Where pathogens are combated with commensal flora instead of mercury chloride or ethanol.
...

Thanks Jim and WGW for all the input. You left me with a lot to think about. I'm not going to start all the seeds at once, so maybe I'll skip the microwave this go-round and see how that works out. I will still try to keep things clean. If I have trouble with pathogens, I will get a little more in depth with the sanitation.

My main concern with this soil is that I get mold growing on it when I keep it moist indoors, although the spores might be coming from somewhere else other than the bag of soil. I have a few plants in this soil and Daconil has worked pretty well against the mold. So I guess a better question to ask would be: would pre-spraying the soil with Daconil be harmful to germination/seedlings? I have done some Googling and can't find anything to suggest so, but I did hear Ryan Neil say that Daconil can be phytotoxic.

 

[willw86]

do you take the husk off a zelkova seed or wings on?

These arrived with the husks off.

 

[willw86]

Hi Willw,

I have Dirr & Heuser's "Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation" checked out from the library right now and compared against it -- only point that stood out as different from your plans is (possibly) the ginnala. Depending on the seed's state and storage it's been in prior to you: "If excessively dry, 1-2 months warm / 3-4 months cold, OR light scarcification before 3-4 months cold". No idea how you would gauge "excessively" though?

Just started with seeds a couple months ago myself and several are still in the fridge so can't help you there. For the ones that didn't require any pre-treatment, I've been using little 12 cell trays with domes, plus bottom heat. I've been pretty happy with the germination rates (80% +) and discovered my problem has typically been burying depth when none sprouted.

Hey TCB, thanks for doing some research for me. I would guess these are considered excessively dry as they probably sat in a warehouse for a while. I will definitely give these some scarification, appreciate the tip!

 

[willw86]

You don't need to sterilize miracle grow soil, it's already sterile.

I don't think so... maybe before the bag is opened (doubtful), but this bag has been opened and exposed to air several times so there is definitely a microscopic party going on in there.