seedling density

Joe2758

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I have hundreds of seeds (and tiny sprouts) I'm going to plant in the ground in a few weeks. Some have started growing and are in biodegradable plugs until it's safe to go outside. If it matters, I'm going to do the window screen method with most. They are:
Ginkgo
Korean HB
Scots pine
J and tri maple
Larch
Euro beech
Hawthorn

So, are there some rules of thumb? The following are examples of the sort of guidelines would be very helpful (this is just made up, not real or accurate):

"100 larches can be planted an inch apart for one year, for 2 years should be 2 inches apart, if leaving 3 years should be 3 inches apart.

or maybe "you can plant five 2x5 1" degradable plugs of scots pine in the ground right next to each other, but they will need to be dug up the next year."

or "the ones in the plugs can be planted closer than the seeds directly in the ground."

I dunno-just general rules of thumb. I'm thinking some I will root prune next year, some after 2, some after 3...and spread out the strongest/survivors at those times. I will probably leave some long term for layering in the future.

Thanks

Edit here's something I found online which is the sort of info i'm trying to get opinions on: 1-2 y/o seedlings can be in rows 8 inches apart, with 3" between seedlings
 
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Eckhoffw

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"100 larches can be planted an inch apart for one year, for 2 years should be 2 inches apart, if leaving 3 years should be 3 inches apart.
I’m thinking this + 1” per year may not be enough space.
Spacing may be more exponential with years in the ground. More like 9” for 3 yr growers and 16” for the fourth year
 

Joe2758

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I’m thinking this + 1” per year may not be enough space.
Spacing may be more exponential with years in the ground. More like 9” for 3 yr growers and 16” for the fourth year
Thank you, exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for!
 

Shibui

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First thought is that dig and replant is not so bad. I do it with many of the species I grow here and they thrive. Dig, root prune and replant also develops much better nebari so don't be too frightened of planting close and moving some or all each year.
Generally I plant far enough apart to work and eventually dig the trees. That means about 50 cm (18-20") Closer than that and I can't get a shovel in between the trees to cut roots. Do not underestimate how much these seedlings will grow in the next few years if you give them a chance. Branches to 2-3' wide and tops up to 6' tall with faster growing species like maple and hornbeam.
Pines, junipers and ginkgo are much slower. The pines and junipers don't like transplant las much as deciduous so I tend to leave them in place for 4-5 years at a time but they need the space to develop properly.
Consider keeping some in pots so you can wire and bend the trunks. Pines with dead straight trunks make very poor bonsai and are more difficult to correct after they thicken. Most of the others can be chopped to add taper and bends to the trunks.
 

Joe2758

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Now that my seedlings are emerging I am trying to plan ahead for their first winter. I am in Zone 6. Aside from minimal basic protection outside, my only other location in winter is a cool garage that stays 40-60 def F. I have a fair amount of:

1. European Beech
2. Japanese maples
3. Korean Hornbeam
4. Scotch pine
5. Eastern Larch
6. Trident maple
7. Ginkgo
8. Japanese red pine
9. Japanese black pine

With all of these I have some in the ground and some in containers, except black pine which are all in containers.

I feel comfortable that my in ground plants will mostly be ok through winter.

But when I picture the tiny seedlings not even a year old in these little containers going through winter, even with protection, I see myself being tempted to bring them into that garage when it starts getting much below freezing, but I know it can be TOO warm. Will they be ok in a cold frame that still may get in the teens or less F?

I was on the fence with Black pine and trident. I am leaning toward black pine in cold garage and trident outside.

As always, any advice greatly appreciated
 

Glaucus

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Planting hundreds of young plants in full ground is alloying. You have to go in and space them out. I think pots are more convenient because you can simply repot those that need a repot, and move them further apart if they start to crowd each other. It is more flexible.

I would sow them all together in a large tray. Then at a certain size, separate them and put them in a plug tray. Then when they get even larger, give them their own individual pot/
 

Schmikah

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Planting hundreds of young plants in full ground is alloying. You have to go in and space them out. I think pots are more convenient because you can simply repot those that need a repot, and move them further apart if they start to crowd each other. It is more flexible.

I would sow them all together in a large tray. Then at a certain size, separate them and put them in a plug tray. Then when they get even larger, give them their own individual pot/
I'm no expert in this topic (or any bonsai topic for that matter), but there are reasons to ground plant.

The two biggest benefits I've seen for development are: 1) can be much faster in developing girth. There are obviously tradeoffs, such as it being more of a chore to dig it up later, but I think it's pretty well established that you'll never get the same rapidity in container growing.

2) increasing or restoring vigor. I have not done this yet, but I've seen multiple people saying throwing something back in the ground can give a potted tree a big boost if it's flagging. Logically that would mean even a healthy tree will get a boost by putting it back in the ground. I think this one just makes sense given the fact that trees are meant to be in the ground and we are the ones creating the artificial environment.
 

Srt8madness

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Glaucus is pretty experienced in ground growing...

Doing a few trees (or even a couple dozen) are different than hundreds of seedlings.
 

Glaucus

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I'm no expert in this topic (or any bonsai topic for that matter), but there are reasons to ground plant.

The two biggest benefits I've seen for development are: 1) can be much faster in developing girth. There are obviously tradeoffs, such as it being more of a chore to dig it up later, but I think it's pretty well established that you'll never get the same rapidity in container growing.

2) increasing or restoring vigor. I have not done this yet, but I've seen multiple people saying throwing something back in the ground can give a potted tree a big boost if it's flagging. Logically that would mean even a healthy tree will get a boost by putting it back in the ground. I think this one just makes sense given the fact that trees are meant to be in the ground and we are the ones creating the artificial environment.

Yeah, the difference between ground growing and pot growing is interesting. However, there is a big difference between growing a plant/tree in a bonsai pot, and growing it in a nursery pot.
If growing a seedling into a somewhat mature, sellable plant would be significantly faster doing it not in a pot but in the full ground, then professional nurseries would always do it in the full ground. According to what I know, most professional (nonbonai) nurseries prefer to grow their plants in pots.

Once you go from seedlings to a dozen sizable trees that can be in the ground in the same spot for 5+ years, things change a bit.

Glaucus is pretty experienced in ground growing...

Doing a few trees (or even a couple dozen) are different than hundreds of seedlings.

I wouldn't say I am very experienced. I just dabble in this a bit, and only for azaleas. However, growing plants & trees is not rocket science, but a 'solved problem'. Tens of millions of trees and other plants are grown in professional nurseries.
Especially if you are starting out with small plants. moving hundreds of plants in an entire growing field from a 5cm/2inch spacing to a 10cm/4inch spacing is very annoying to do.
There is a certain practicality to using plug trays and pots.

Additionally, at least for pine bonsai, I heard there is an advantage in using pots on younger trees. I saw this in that youtube channel of the Japanese bonsai grower with one of the largest pine bonsai operations.
I can look up the channel and maybe even the specific video maybe tomorrow. But I have no personal experience her.

It all depends on if your hundreds of seeds will result in hundreds of seedlings and then hudnreds of trees. Or just a dozen seedlings into a dozen seeds.
 

Srt8madness

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Best I can tell for pines, best is to grow in pots for nebari development, then ground for trunk girth, then back in pots for ramification.
 

leatherback

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re. pot or ground growing, let's not forget the watering needs.

In general, I would decide a few things:

- As your seedlings grow, do you intent to thin your stock? If so, you can plant "too close", say at 1 ft distance now and in 2-4 years you can lift every second tree and double your spacing (And naturally, move things around as you might not wat to keep every second every time
- How will you move around? Distance between rows should be large enough to move around and that should allow for equipment, say a wheelbarrow etc.
- Where will you leave the organic waste (This will generate massive waste with a regular pruning regime.

A field-grower here in the area has his trees spaced roughly 1.5 metres (5 feet) apart, and distance between the trees maybe 2 ft. After a decade the trees have merged into nicely manicured hedges.
 

Shibui

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I don't plant seedlings in the grow beds until they have had some root work, usually around 1-2 years old. Nebari is a big part of good bonsai so spending time getting a good start is time well spent.
When the trees do go I the ground I usually follow @leatherback method. Smaller, deciduous trees are planted a little closer together, usually around 30cm apart as they won't compete too much for the first year. After the first year in the ground they are all dug, pruned and root pruned. This allows me to further improve the nebari and does not seem to set growth back appreciably. Second year trees are replanted at around 45 cm spacing.
Pines, junipers and other slow growing species are not dug each winter so they are planted at the final 45-60 cm spacings and left to grow for 3-5 years with just occasional top pruning to direct growth and keep useful sections compact.
Worth noting that I have 1m spacing between rows. As mentioned that allows for easy access for weeding, pruning, watering, etc - even when the tops have grown and spread out a bit. Even at 1m spacing it's a bit of a battle getting through the rows as the trees have grown so much through summer.
Smaller plots can be planted closer together as you'll probably need to access less often but trees definitely compete with each other so closer planting will limit growth and therefore thickening.
Ultimate spacings may also depend on how rich your soils are and how much watering is required as trees compete for both water and nutrients.
 

Joe2758

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re. pot or ground growing, let's not forget the watering needs.

In general, I would decide a few things:

- As your seedlings grow, do you intent to thin your stock? If so, you can plant "too close", say at 1 ft distance now and in 2-4 years you can lift every second tree and double your spacing (And naturally, move things around as you might not wat to keep every second every time
- How will you move around? Distance between rows should be large enough to move around and that should allow for equipment, say a wheelbarrow etc.
- Where will you leave the organic waste (This will generate massive waste with a regular pruning regime.

A field-grower here in the area has his trees spaced roughly 1.5 metres (5 feet) apart, and distance between the trees maybe 2 ft. After a decade the trees have merged into nicely manicured hedges.
Good insight!
So if I were to answer those questions in order:
- Basically what you said. Each spring pull enough seedlings to leave enough spacing between the ones that stay in the ground. I will prune the roots on those and replant in the ground elsewhere, pot up, compost if hopeless, or giveaway (Or sell if they're a few years old maybe).

I like this idea because it naturally varies the time spent in the ground which is the best possible way to learn and compare.

-yard waste no problem

When I run out of room I will either just go with that, or expand to other sites off my home (I have a few spots).

I am not sure where this will go, because another factor is my in-laws own an established Greenhouse/market where I could easily offer the trees for sale in nursery pots.
 

Joe2758

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Since you all are helping me so much, I figured it would be worth posting some more information here of my "operation:"
1FD0DE48-F5AE-4121-9381-F085EAB69E84.jpegSome crowded beech and maple in the ground to be spaced out next year
7BC2984F-5A14-4EF0-962A-FE83E6ECD320.jpeg
Experimenting with baby net pots

F5468A80-A036-452D-9851-EB4A204BDD75.jpeg
Some plug trays and the start of some "super minis."

1FFF7E86-94E2-4DAC-AB34-5B870955943D.jpeg
JBP sprouts and seedling cuttings

7C63CDD7-5642-4E1C-9FB7-BD7B84466E7A.jpeg
new thing I made this year, there's no bottom.
 

Joe2758

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F6EC0EE4-5F21-42E6-A24E-C907D7349A77.jpeg
Got some ginkgo in there

29623FE9-E71F-4ADD-BE0F-E2A7870A1862.jpeg
About 50 one y/o bald cypress that I purchased

A4625F85-6107-47B1-94CC-FC7322785071.jpeg
Baby larch

47AF1EA9-D5AE-4F7B-8E0A-5157EDCBEAAA.jpeg
Baby Scotch pines


Anyway, I described the ground plants basic plan. The potted things will be up potted through the season starting in only one inch plugs.

My main concern right now is what winter will bring to the potted seedlings. i think I will just have to keep them outside protected by some foam board or something simple. I don't want them to die, but at the same time I don't want to make a big production setting up for each winter, i.e if they can't take it I guess i dont really want them.
 

Joe2758

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I don't plant seedlings in the grow beds until they have had some root work, usually around 1-2 years old. Nebari is a big part of good bonsai so spending time getting a good start is time well spent.
When the trees do go I the ground I usually follow @leatherback method. Smaller, deciduous trees are planted a little closer together, usually around 30cm apart as they won't compete too much for the first year. After the first year in the ground they are all dug, pruned and root pruned. This allows me to further improve the nebari and does not seem to set growth back appreciably. Second year trees are replanted at around 45 cm spacing.
Pines, junipers and other slow growing species are not dug each winter so they are planted at the final 45-60 cm spacings and left to grow for 3-5 years with just occasional top pruning to direct growth and keep useful sections compact.
Worth noting that I have 1m spacing between rows. As mentioned that allows for easy access for weeding, pruning, watering, etc - even when the tops have grown and spread out a bit. Even at 1m spacing it's a bit of a battle getting through the rows as the trees have grown so much through summer.
Smaller plots can be planted closer together as you'll probably need to access less often but trees definitely compete with each other so closer planting will limit growth and therefore thickening.
Ultimate spacings may also depend on how rich your soils are and how much watering is required as trees compete for both water and nutrients.
Hey Shibui, what is the leatherback method?
 

Shibui

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Hey Shibui, what is the leatherback method?
Those 3 things he mentioned in the previous post.
  • Plant closer while the trees are small but increase distances as they grow and thicken to leave enough room for more growth. You will invariable have some trees that don't do well and more that don't look good after a year or 2 so there should be a gradual reduction in numbers anyway. You may also elect to take some out as smaller bonsai while others grow on to larger trees.
  • Have enough space between rows or plants to get in comfortably and do necessary weeding, trimming, digging, etc.
  • Make provision for the waste you'll end up with. Growing trees generate an absurd amount of growth each year if they are doing well.
 

Joe2758

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Oh, ok of course. Sorry, I can be a bit dense. Yes, that sounds like a perfect plan; thank you everyone!
 
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