Seeking Inspiration: Styles (plural) of a Giant Sequoia?

Emanon

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Since I posted a picture of a cone last year (post #2) I thought I'd post a picture of something related and similarly interesting to me. This was growing exactly like the cone in post #2 -- I thought I had a second cone -- but then it stopped, budded, and turned back into a branch. Does this happen with trees or does what I wrote just sound completely naive? If so, maybe what I thought was a cone in post #2 is not a cone either? Either way I now have a round ball in the middle of a branch if it continues to grow out...
 

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anon user

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Normally, you are right, being concerned with putting on a lot girth, I should just let the tree grow undisturbed for some time (the first option). But, with this species, I'm really hesitant to do that. The longer the tree grows the more lower branches it sheds and gives up on (if that makes sense). So if I just leave it to grow to 6 feet tall, for example, I fear I risk losing all the lower branches that I could turn into new leaders in an attempt to create taper.

I've only had sequoia and coastal redwoods for a couple of years now. Dawns I've been growing for many years. I think people sometimes confuse what a full sized tree needs/does compared to these miniatures we are trying to grow need and do. I've had people tell me coastals need lots of fog to get enough moisture, for example. Well, yeesss...when the tree is 300' tall it needs fog/high humidity because capillary action and root space limitations prevent adaquate water being pumped that high. That's not a problem with my 3' tree. Given moderate root space, it can easily suck up enough water to keep from dehydrating. Does humidity help my trees? Likely yes, but they'll never git big enough that they need the unique characteristics of the CA coast to battle physics that same way they do in their native habitat. We'll see if this year calls me a liar, but my coastals had no problem with several months in a row of 90 degree days last summer. Not a brown leaf in sight! 20% humidity in my house over the winter did cause dried leaves on one of them, however :(

I suspect similar with the loss of lower limbs. Just enough truth to sell... No matter how you look at it, our trees are short! You think the tree really notices that it's 10' tall so should stop feeding lower branches? Wouldn't that imply that the "green layer" of mature trees should only be a few feet in height? And yet on mature trees, the top 1/3...or ~100' of trunk often has branches. I could be wrong (usually am) but if your tree is giving up and shedding lower branches at 6' I suspect something else is going on. I would suspect the branch is too shaded to generate enough energy to be worth keeping around or maybe you're not fertilizing enough to keep the apex growing vigorously AND support branches. Since the new growth tends to be pretty dense, I wonder if the tree is really dropping every other branch to create openness for itself or something along those lines. Branch spacing on mature trees is not as close as spacing on young trees. I'd guess that natural spacing has to do with in between branches dying off because of shading and once enough branches in the middle die off, one is in enough light to do well. It just doesn't make sense to me that it would just start loosing branches at 6' in height for no reason. I'm not saying it doesn't happen...just that with this size tree, the reason should be something manageable.

I do wonder if your tree is getting enough light and nutrients to grow vigorously though. If you are chopping the roots that drastically and shortening the tree every year, it's hard to tell. Below is a picture of one of my sequoia. This tree was a 6" plug when I got it in October of 2018. I'd guess it's seen 3 growing seasons now. Your tree is clearly bigger, but it doesn't feel as dense as mine does. The lower trunk on mine is sparse...some of that is damage to the plug from shipping and some is I had it crowded in last summer. You can't see it in the picture, but there are one or two new branches sprouting down near the base now that I have it in a more open area. I've got some bigger branches forming. I'll be curious to see if they get aborted during the next 4' of growth.

My concern over back budding with these guys is actually quite the opposite of having no leader to take over. I've yet to "chop" one of my sequoia...and don't plan on it for a couple years yet, but I broke the trunk on one of my coastals and started a miniature fairy ring! That's not quite right...the trunk was only a 1/4" in diameter at the time. What I got was more of a dense bush of a dozen plus new trunks! The picture below is after I wired a couple of the larger new trunks out and up to create space and cut out 4-5 other competitors to open up the inside. Even now, almost a year later, I have to pinch out new trunks pretty regularly! Hopefully sequoia don't have quite the same habit ;)

20200609_185320.jpgcoastal_redwood_2019.jpg
 

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I don't know nothin' about these trees, but generally speaking, trees favor new growth and shed foliage and branches that are less productive. You need to treat them the way you would if you were maintaining taper. The top of the tree can't be allowed unfettered growth and lower foliage ignored. If you want the standard Pine/Christmas tree shape/taper, you need to keep the foliage/branches trimmed at approximately the same pyramidal shape and density from the tip-top down to some point where the trunk will not be tapered anymore because there are no branches below that point, like in a forest.

There is an incongruity built into that process that precludes max growth because you are limiting growth in the area that the tree would prefer to have its strongest growth so that the lower branches can be short enough to still be useful in the final design rather than foliage way outboard of where you need it. I don't think you can have both high growth and lower branches with foliage in close, but I've been wrong before...

Dawn Redwood beats that game because you can chop all the branches back to the trunk and start over to create branches in proportion to each other after you've grown the trunk to the size you want. That might work on Bald Cypress, too, but I'm speculating.
 

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Yamadori
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I don't know nothin' about these trees, but generally speaking, trees favor new growth and shed foliage and branches that are less productive. You need to treat them the way you would if you were maintaining taper. The top of the tree can't be allowed unfettered growth and lower foliage ignored. If you want the standard Pine/Christmas tree shape/taper, you need to keep the foliage/branches trimmed at approximately the same pyramidal shape and density from the tip-top down to some point where the trunk will not be tapered anymore because there are no branches below that point, like in a forest.

There are many competing factors at play. The cone shape is a pretty optimal shape...surface area wise...for light collection. At some point, the shape cannot be maintained. Lateral branches get too heavy, nutrient transport stalls out, etc. From that point down, the tree will generally look more barrel like until issues like shading of branches, accumulated damage, etc...cause the branch to be aborted entirely.

But, I maintain that at 6' the factors that cause branch attrition are minimal and are mostly things we can control for. Here are some samples of young, but tall trees with branches all the way to the ground.


Click through the various locals for lots of examples. In some cases the lower branches have obviously been limbed for landscaping purposes. The second example on this page


claims to be 3 years old and is clearly a much denser tree than Emenon's. The advantages of growing in the ground :)

There is an incongruity built into that process that precludes max growth because you are limiting growth in the area that the tree would prefer to have its strongest growth so that the lower branches can be short enough to still be useful in the final design rather than foliage way outboard of where you need it. I don't think you can have both high growth and lower branches with foliage in close, but I've been wrong before...

I challenge how significant apical growth strength is in a 6' tree. I do not question that sequoia would prefer to grow up than out. I do question whether at the scale of our hobbiest trees how dominating that effect really is. I think we tip the scales a lot towards apical dominance by planting in pots. That limits the tree's resource significantly. Resources will go to the top before lateral so if the resources are significantly scarce, we only see top growth. However, to form a cone the actual volume of foliage being added to lower branches _must_ exceed the volume being added to the top branches. That's just math. The lower branches provide more surface area than the upper ones. The sites above show plenty of trees with cone like shapes out to tens of feet wide. To make that shape, the lateral branches must put out some significant growth as well.

Now for bonsai, those lateral branches start to lose their usefulness when they get too lateral for the final form. If back budding isn't an issue, then there's not much of a problem. If the tree doesn't back bud easily, we may have issues. I honestly don't have enough experience with sequoia to know how the closer in portions of branches will react when trimmed back. I've read resources (wish I remembered where!) that said sequoia will bud anywhere cambium is exposed. Old growth dowsn't tend to backbud simply because the bark is too thick. The artical (scientific journal if I remember correctly) suggested that if the bark were shipped away down to the cambium and the area provided sufficient light, buds would grow.

Again, on our tiny trees, I'm not sure the bark will ever get thick enough to hinder buds. But that's something that's easy to experiment with. Nick the bark on the lower trunk. Let that part of the trunk receive light. See if a bud sprouts :D I might even try that one one of my own trees just for kicks!

Dawn Redwood beats that game because you can chop all the branches back to the trunk and start over to create branches in proportion to each other after you've grown the trunk to the size you want. That might work on Bald Cypress, too, but I'm speculating.

In my opinion, the problem with this "trick" on dawns is that you don't get the characteristic armpits


That's another character quirk between dawn redwoods and bald cypress. Most people focus on the opposite vs alternating leaf habit because that's evident on trees of any age. On older trees, dawns grow armpits. This site has a comparison picture of branches of dawn vs bald near the bottom


The armpits form as new growth flows around existing branches. If you limb the tree after the trunk has reached an optimal size, the new branches form on the surface and, since the trunk is mostly developed to the thickness you want, there's no growth to build armpits.

How realistic it is to grow armpits on a bonsai scale tree, I don't know. Unfortunately, I did not get the opportunity to lift specimen I had in the ground when we moved 10 years ago :( That tree was several inches in diameter and 15' tall and was meant to go into a bonsai pot but circumstances didn't allow me to get it out of the ground when we sold the house...sigh...
 

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Is this not an example of the top growing like a house on fire, and the lower trunk on its way to barren?
CR 1.JPG
 

Emanon

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Just to close out this thread: the tree I was seeking advice about died. I'm not sure why, but I have my suspicions. The leading contender... The tree was 8 or 9 years old and this is the first year since I got the tree, 7 years ago, that I did not dramatically reduce the root mass. For the first time, I did not repot the tree at all or cut the trunk. Maybe chopping the roots promotes the proliferation of the shallow, tiny feeder roots this tree is known for in nature. In a pot, it seems like those white feeder roots when not cut grow long and then old, and overwatering may then become an issue?
 

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I'd like to pick one little bone, if I may, regarding the earlier conjecture about keeping the lower branches useful in a bonsai application as they grow out long enough to still be contributing to increasing the diameter of the trunk (over many years). The foliage on those lower branches would get further and further out from the trunk and probably at some point would be too far out to be useful when the lower branches were shortened to finished bonsai length, if and only if it would not back-bud after those cuts were made. The lower branches would be too thick at that point in the process and would need to be re-created with suitable ramification which would require substantial back-budding over some years to become bonsai-like. This is do-able with Dawns, sans armpits, of which I was unaware. Personally, I can do without the armpits which would be un-visible in normal circumstance anyway, hidden by the usual foliage. Those knee things are not high on my list, either. My condolences on your loss. Better luck next time.
 
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That’s too bad man sorry to hear that. I have had 2 of 13 survive for me all grown from seed in 2016. One is in a 5 gallon perforated like a colander and the other is in a 60” narrow resin pot. I am in the same boat as you guys, I faced fungus from my &@!$?* neighbor who is determined to kill every evergreen I have with his tarded white pines he won’t treat or take down. I digress. Hoping to plant one and bonsai the other. I will update my thread soon.
 
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