Seiju Forest - Different Cultivars. Opinions encouraged.

[Captain.Bonsai]

I've decided to create a Seiju Elm forest. I've collected specimen from 2 different cultivars that are clearly Seiju yet ever-so-slightly different in leaf size and color. There's also a minor difference in the bark color and quality. Yes, they're all Seiju.

Aside from the obvious: they have genetic differences based on environmental factors... What's your take on age and maturity in species characteristics? I'd like to hope that long-term aging will soften the differences but I'm not confident that will be the case. Maybe it will magnify them.

Would you plant them together? Influence my choice.

At first glance only the trained eye would notice, and I will never compete or show my bonsai. I'm leaning towards going for it and embracing the slight variations. Yet I feel compelled to get your opinions and experience because the discrepancies keep grabbing my attention.

Sorry, no pictures until Monday.

 

[Shibui]

As far as I am aware Seiju is a cultivar of Chinese elm. Can only be grown as cuttings so all must be genetically identical. If you have something that's different then it can't be Seiju. There can sometimes be differences caused by environment so if one was grown in shade and another in sun the leaves and maybe bark will look different but when grown under identical conditions they should look the same.

You say 'collected'? From where? Nursery? Gardens? Japan? Roadside or forest? Hard to believe you can collect Seiju anywhere but the forests of Northern Japan.

I would say put them together if differences are as minor as you say it could give added interest but will wait for the pictures.

 

[Forsoothe!]

No, don't do it. The name of the game is control of what it looks like, and the slight difference in shapes and habits may upset that apple cart. The balance or contrast between individuals that you will nurture will be less controllable. If you start out to create two peas in a pod and one grows faster and bigger than the other, you'll eventually have to change your goal. If you start out thinking you'll nurture differences and they are too insignificant, that may look incompetent. Here is another string about the same question.

 

[M. Frary]

As far as I am aware Seiju is a cultivar of Chinese elm. Can only be grown as cuttings so all must be genetically identical. If you have something that's different then it can't be Seiju

Correct.
I've seen yatsabusa incorrectly identified as seiju.
Seiju has a rounder slightly smaller leaf.

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

Your definition of “cultivar” seems more correct than the context I used it in. I was attempting to describe the inevitable adaptations that occur in one species in 2 different environments expressed in terms of physical characteristics.

“Collect” in this case means acquire, or add to my collection for a forest . They are stock from lone pine nursery and evergreen garden works; both are reputable, I’ve seen Brent discussed here.

I have a yatsabusa, the differences are glaring. This is not a yatsabua. Pictures will clear up that suspicion for you. These are seiju.

Forsoothe, thanks for the excellent advice and link. I guess my question was aimed directly at your idea of taming over time. I was imagining an improvement of differences as they mature while ignoring the potential for worsening. It’s awfully tempting to give it a try.

I’m imagining the difference between the trunk and branches of an older seiju. The bark becomes refined before the branches do (see the pic I found and attached). I’m hoping these nursery stock may be a representation of that thought. They must be different ages and stages of maturation.

Pictures of my plants will really will help this thread... tomorrow.

 

[Maloghurst]

Eventually all seiju elm will have corky bark. So a forest of all seiju elm will work. Some people do confuse seiju with different cultivar like catlin, a smooth bark similar to seiju.
I am planning a forest of seiju as well. Here are my 2 seiju for comparison.
I’m planning on air layering off all the top/long branches of the big one for a possible forest. Then a monster out of the base.

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

Interesting. I’ve never heard of catlin, I’ll look it up. Nice trees!

These nurseries are reputable and I don’t think species identification is the problem. I believe these are all air layers as well. The picture of your monster seiju with multiple air layers is a good example for this topic. The air layer closer to the primary trunk is going to produce a trunk different than the layer from a more distal location on the tree... and maybe different leaf sizes?

 

[Maloghurst]

Some cultivar of any tree can possibly revert to original stock but rarely happens. So it doesn’t matter what location the airlayer is from. The only
Difference will be the diameter of the branch. They will all have corky bark eventually and very small leaves/internodes up to 1/5”
The yatsubusa looks almost identical except the leaves/ internodes are bigger. Maybe up to 1/2” Same corky bark.
Maybe your just referring to where each of your trees are in respect to the bark corking up.

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

I’ll just post the pics and calipers tomorrow and let them speak for themselves.

The corkiness is definitely at different stages which demonstrates differences in age. Trunk caliper is very similar.

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

Thank you for all of the input so far.

I have the nursery pots staged in a tray in the general layout I’ve planned. I covered the pots with fir bark for insulation because it’s getting hot, and for visual reference of a horizon as I plan before potting.

Nursery A: leaf lengths range 6.2 - 9.7mm. Trunk caliper pictured is 10.1mm.

Nursery B: leaf lengths range 5.2 - 8.9mm. Trunk calipers pictured are 6.4mm and 7.8mm.

After getting home and looking closely again, I realize I may be splitting hairs regarding leaf size. It seems the trees are different in ages/ stages of development/ environmental factors resulting in slightly different leaf sizes. They both have larger and smaller leaves. The largest on A are not significantly bigger than the largest on B. I’ve posted pictures of large and small leaves from both.

I’m distracted because nursery A has mostly bigger leaves and nursery B has mostly smaller leaves. The picture from above the tray shows the quantity of large vs small leaves. The bigger leaves are closer to the camera so size is more exaggerated than reality.

The glaring difference is trunk color. See for yourself.

My current impression is that I’m being distracted by different ages/ characteristics of nursery stock propagation. Eventually they should all have corky bark and mature leaves of very similar size.

What do you think? Plant the group?

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

The sun is out. You can see the leaf size difference better in this pic.

 

[penumbra]

If you are looking for a group planting you can do no harm putting them together. You can also split them up down the road if you wish.
Also, I would like to add, are you doing it for you or someone else? Do you plan to exhibit? If it is for your pleasure and you don't look to exhibit, do what please you. I absolutely can guarantee that if I show some of my plants I will get many opinions about how to "correct" them. I will admit that I have gotten some ideas here that I have implemented to my pleasure, but ultimately my plants are mine and they please me.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Your eyes are wide open now, so if you put it together you will be able to monitor whether or not it evolves towards something you don't want and change it at that time. Go for it.

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

Your eyes are wide open now, so if you put it together you will be able to monitor whether or not it evolves towards something you don't want and change it at that time. Go for it.

Ah ha! A change of tune from forsoothe! Your original input was weighing on me more than the others. It was a inciteful, honest and wise... and a little grim.

You’re right again. I’ll watch closely to see how they converge or diverge in their physical differences and adjust accordingly.

The seiju forest will be planted tonight. Mixed sources. I just got the pot in the mail today.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I think the differences you were seeing were just a product of different age and size trees. You are probably looking at the same cultivar, same clone, same genetics.

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

I think the differences you were seeing were just a product of different age and size trees. You are probably looking at the same cultivar, same clone, same genetics.

I agree.

This is part of why bonsai captivates us. Time and patience has a way of sorting things out.

I potted them tonight but it’s too dark for pics. I’ll post some tomorrow.

 

[Shibui]

I also think any differences here are the result of age and environmental influences. Better fed trees will have larger leaves than those which have not had the same nutrients. I can't see any significant differences in leaf size between the 2 pics.
Others have already looked at how the bark on this cv changes. A difference of a year could make big difference in texture and colour.
Water pH and any sprays can also alter bark colour. In the past when I took trees to show in Melbourne people would comment on the white bark on trident maples - very different to the city trees. Turned out my well water was quite acid and was probably bleaching the bark over time. Japanese deciduous trees are sprayed or dipped in Lime sulphur (winter strength) solution each winter as a preventative fungicide/ insecticide. That can make the bark much lighter in colour. If one of these nurseries use a different spray regime that might account for some difference in bark colour.
As both are reputable, it is highly likely that both sources are the same cultivar. Mislabelling can occur, especially in larger nurseries, and anyone who buys in stock is at the mercy of the supplier - but I don't think that looks to be the case here.

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

I’m very satisfied with how it turned out. Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[Maloghurst]

I’m very satisfied with how it turned out. Thanks again for the feedback.

Nice, makes me look forward to creating one as well. They say these root from cuttings easily. I would try to root all your cuttings, grow them tall and add to this forest until you have around 25 trees or so. Maybe more

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

Nice, makes me look forward to creating one as well. They say these root from cuttings easily. I would try to root all your cuttings, grow them tall and add to this forest until you have around 25 trees or so. Maybe more

I like that idea. I’m definitely going to need some smaller caliper trunks because these are all very close in size. My plan was to just wait a few years then buy some more air layers from Brent. I’ll try your idea and use my plan as a backup in case of failure.